• Thanks for the info.  I was all psyked about joining the navy as a nuke sub officer, and now I am changing my contact info and running from recruiters.
  - Jason
• Hey Arron,

  I decided not to follow through with the Navy because partly on what you wrote.
  The recruiter was FURIOUS. I guess he spent alot of time on my application because of my knee surgery.
  Mike

• Iwas thinking about joining the navy because they pay 100%of my tuition but after taking a look at this website i think that it is not worth wasting any time in my life being depressed or regreting it.
  - Stella
  
  Reply: look to get various grants and the like to pay for school.
• I have receantly signed up for SECF. (submarine Electronics Computer Field) and stumbled on your site.  Plz tell me some ppl make it out ok. now im terrified.  Im 20 and now am thinking, what the hell did i get myself into?  I want to serve, but i want to come home. ty for your time and ur service to our country.  good ppl truely do go unnoticed.  ty.
• I need help right away ive been in for 10 months and i want to get out ive waisted a year doing nothing absolutly nothin my ship is dry dock till 16 of dec, 2005 i want to get out be for they ship out for there year cruse (yeah a year on the sea) i dont want to waist anymore time doing this i want to earn my degree now and i could of had a year done of college but no i get stuck learning some shit that honesly isnt ganna help me in the future. I heard of something like they can release you from active service to obtain you college degrees if you want is this true? if so can u tell me how? and in aarons case ive felt the same way about a girl godd the biggest crush(but i didnt let it go any where) im told by so many people that the only reason why i want to get out is b/c of a "cunt" i want to prove everyone wrong i want an early out go to college have a job on the outside world and show them i can do what my heart desires. If there is an alternate way of getting!
  out "legally" with out drugs and alcohol and not waiting 4 years for my time to get up please inform me

  VERY GREATFUL FOR YOUR RESPONSE

• I considered going enlisted but I decided to finish my degree, I finnagled my way out of DEP, (the recruiter lied to me, almost made me drop out of college). I still would love to serve. Is it worth it to join and become an officer in the military?, which is the better branch? I will be graduating next spring with a chemical engineering degree from a state university, my gpa is low about 2.7 ( I have had to work 2 jobs to put myself thro college) so I am concerned about job prospects, i took out loans about 30k, what are the pros and cons of joining should i just perservere and look for a real job, how much do you really earn? how relevant is the whole experience? advice pls!
• I've got to thank you a lot for your web site man... It got me through the depressing times shortly after getting my ELMS shortly after graduating boot camp. Almost a year later, I got myself an (almost) full paid scholarship, a perfect 10 girlfriend, and best of all, it feels so great knowing that I can still stand tall and say "Fuck the Navy!" - Eric
• your experience really is what you make it, but you really have to work to make it something.  I suppose you also have to ask yourself if the juice is worth the squeeze so to say.  If anyone has any questions for me I'll give you my email in case Aaron doesn't post it.  
  
  At any rate, if you're still in keep your chin up, I know it sounds cliched, but I have every faith that you can make it out unscathed.  Just ask Aaron, he's a legitimate success and good person despite his experience or what others might claim. - Scott
  
• Man! I find it hard to believe the Navy could be so "stinking" bad....am thinking of joining 'cuz no decent jobs around here. I have friends who praise the Navy. Maybe not go in submarine service?
  
  REPLY: well it all depends on how smart you are. if you often find yourself asking the question "why" then I do not recommend the military. if however you are willing to take whatever is thrown your way it might work out ok
• Our son imformed my wife yesterday that he has talked to a recruiter and wants to join the Navy. He's talking about $2,700 a month and finishing college while he's in. He has finished two years of college already. He said that if anyone con give him a good reason not to do this he may change his mind. I NEED SOME GOOD REASONS TO SAVE MY SON. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a peacenik or anything like that. My dad and uncles all served, but, I think that my kid may be a little lost right now and these guys are taking advantage of him if not outright lying to him. Maybe if he heard from someone that can back up their statements it could make the difference.
  Thanks
  Bob
• Dear person (I'm sorry, I never seemed to see your name written anywhere, so I don't know how else to address you),
  I really want an honest opinion about the Navy as it might pertain to me because everyone in my family is opposed to my joining, and though I've had plenty of assurances from recruiters and the like, as well as indoctrinated college students - I'd like to hear from people who hate the Navy what makes it so bad - just as a precaution.
  Before you elaborate on your site (considering you have time to do so), let me first tell you what program I am thinking of applying to and why. I'm currently a student at Duke university, and I have 2 years left (80,000 in loans). I'm in engineering, and so they recommended at the end of my training to do SWO if I was looking for the lowest commitment. This is 4 years as an officer. I'm considering doing this because I don't think anyone else would higher me for a co-op with a 2.7 GPA (I had one very bad semester). 80,000 for college and 40,000 for each of the four years seems like a good deal.
  I'm truly hesitant though because I've heard that Navy life is awful. I've seen written everywhere on the web how life is unbearable for enlisted people, and I sincerely don't doubt that to be true. I was curious how life is for officers though. Is it any different? Do NROTC grads get to return to shore after 2 years like they say? How much time do you spend at sea?
  Generally I'm a personable person so I don't think that I would either abuse anyone or be abused by anyone - so the people aspect of it doesn't seem too threatening (I'm a woman, in case you haven't surmised). I'm more concerned about officer food and housing. Is it really rice everyday?
  I would appreciate your help,
  Thanks,
  Alice

• Just wanted to say that I thought your depictions of submarines in general are very accurate. I just got out after 8 years and would have put on chief this year if I had stayed in.
  - Joey
• You'll probably be blown away by this, but I just retired after 20 years, was a chief, and somehow, I still have the frontal lobe capability to appreciate the stuff you've written on your site.  I think my favorite is your work on the word "Shipmate."  That's some good stuff, man.  I also thought your Bacon caper was both well-thought out and hilarious.
  
  I stayed in as long as I did only because the money was green and I had the time to pursue an education on active duty.  I think if I would have ended up on a sub like you, your story and mine would have been the same.  The other stuff you write -- so very true.  And so very sad.  You know what I thought when I was told I made chief?  "Cool, now even fewer people can mess with me."
  
  I really hope you're happier out of the Navy.  Some people love to wear the uniform and go around exercising their "leadership."  Those people we call "crazy."  Certainly not you, since you figured it out; I think you're the one who kept his sanity.  Ironic, huh?
  
  Be cool,
  Michael
• i just personnaly want to say thank you for doing what you're doing, trying to educate people and open their eyes to the crap we have to put up with while serving our country. I am currently still in the navy serving as an ET nuke and i have to say i wish i'd have found your site before i joined, wouldn't be in the boat i am now, hating life every second of every day and wanting to just kill everyone i work with. i have no qualms with the navy, i served 9 months TAD outside of Reactor department and it was the best 9 months of this whole navy experience. the real navy isn't full of back stabbing, snitching, no backbone having, cocksucking assholes like the nuclear navy, and all i've ever asked of my chain of command is to be re-assigned to a new rate, not related to nuclear power, of course you know the answer to that request. i don't really know what else to do, smoking weed or just up and leaving seems to be my only 2 real options here, any advice?
• Hey. Found your site by accident. I am an ex nuke but I am still in. I found some real truth in your site; sorry you had such a bad time in the USN.
• I just want to day bravo to you for posting all the stuff you have. I too was on a nuclear sub and ended up going mental and guess what? as soon as I was out and free, I have never had another "incedent". go figure. I have some pretty wierd stories of my own about psych wards, navy inconsistancies and stupid people who have been told they are smart by the navy but take it to extreame and actually believe they are. Hats off to you my friend, thought I was the only one that thought like this. - Mike
• I am very much in agreement with you and I love that this site exists.  I am an electrician on a nuclear powered submarine and dream of homicide and suicide almost all the time.  I assume you are no longer in the Navy.  Do you have any advice for a fellow electrician on whether jobs on the outside are this fucked up, especially power plant/electrician jobs.  I don't want to make the same mistake again.
• i was told of your site by a disturbed or so mm2 that was standing watch with me today. He is on med hold for some disorders that he really didnt describe in detail but he did mention several things that led to his current situation like taking a loaded gun and putting it in his mouth and pulling the trigger to test the safety, not to mention while in manuevering and on watch. His problems were not dealt with and he grew worse and worse over time. Now he is dq'ed and he can get treatment but i think it took way to long for this guy to be dealt with.
  
  Anyways my point is that i agree with whole fact the navy does not take care of its people very well and quality of life is a horrid joke. I myself have been trying for almost three years to get the navy to acknowledge my migraines but i have had 3 corspman in the past who all said you cant have migraines its not in your medical record and if it were you have to get kicked off subs. I am a second class A-ganger and i have been in for six years the navy finnaly tried to treat my migraines and put me betta blockers and calcium channel blockers which seem to cause more headaches than stop. i am less than a month to see nureology but my command treats me like shit and calls me a liar for saying i have migraines.
  
  Although i just reported to this command and they dont know me for shit, they dont even bother to talk to me or look at my record. ive been junior sailor of the year and i even went up for jsoy for pacnorwest. my engineer in front his j.o.'s said i was more compitent and capable than any of the j.o.'s in his wardroom. but my new command just thinks im trying to be a shit bag and dont want to address a real problem. Im sorry you had such a shitty time on the big D ive been there but i made it out without drugs or drinking or god. this shits not for everyone and i know that what i do is not worth what i get paid.
  
  IF YOU COULD BE SO KIND AS TO REMIND THE WORLD WHAT A-GANGERS DO AND NOT INCLUDE US AS CONES OR NUC'S CAUSE WERE TWEENER BASTARDS HATED BY OUR OWN DEPARTMENT HEADS AND ALL THE FUN WE HAVE UNCLOGGING THE SHITTERS IN THE MIDDLE LEVEL HEAD OR REACHING INTO SHITTER PIPES TO CLEAN GIANT GOBS OF WAX CAUSE SOME ASS HOLE WAS TO LAZY TO POUR HIS WAX BACK INTO THE BOTTLE HE GOT IT FROM. ANY WAY i could bitch about my job for hours im not sure if i agree on all you say but for the most part im right there with you.
• My son is having an awful time. He just got off the USS Nassau, and went back to School, Great Lakes. He has been bitten by a brown recluse spider, he is very depressed, our house burned down on his day he was coming home for leave. He stored his uniforms at our home because they were the winter ones..P Coat and stuff like that. Well there are 3 guys in his school that wont listen nor do they care if the rest of the barricks get into trouble. My son has developed high blood pressure, depression and all sorts of wild things going on with him. His people in charge just laugh and say suck it up. They put him on meds to make him sleep and for depression but he has to stand watch and get up at 4. Its hard to stay up in class and do everything else with the meds...oh the dr will be out till the end of Aug. I want my kid out....I am taking his burned up winter uniforms down to Great Lakes..and have a talk with these people who think we has just plain old folks have no say...BUT I THINK THIS MOM DOES...
  If you have any ideas to help me, when I get there, I would love to hear from you.
  -Darlene
• I'm currently a nuke ET aboard the uss San Fransisco. I'm suffering heavily from depression. I've told my chief many times and he keeps saying that he will schedule appt's and then "forgets to". I was wondering what kind of discharge you were given, and also how have you faired job/college wise since your drug discharge? Also do you have any advice for one who is constantly pondering suicide due to the navy?
• my daughter had left for rtc great lakes 7-19-05 it was her choice she knew she needed a change in her life and we were all so confident that she would make it i started writing her letters the day after she left she just called me yesterday aug 1 crying and said she is coming home she was put in a division with a bunch of messed up girls all they do is fight she never recieved not 1 of the 20 letters that i wrote i recieved a letter telling me to write to encourage her and show her support but they never 1 so she felt that because she made some bad choices that we had sent our problem off and forgot about her when i think i probly cried more than she did she cried morning and cried herself to sleep at night so they evaluated her i just fell if they would have let her call more than the call when she arrived and have her mail she would have felt the support and wouldnt have felt so alone i unerstand that there are consequinces for the other girls fighting but make them run an extra mile or something dont take away there support.do you think after she gets her mail and maybe fells different about it and wants to stay will they still send her home
• Frist off nice site: I like the way you have positive and negative replies posted. For everyone's info I am a Naval Reserve Recruiter. I like my job and I hate my job. I like seeing people join who don't have the option of Active duty. I hate it if they are not given proper training or just a waste of space. As far as this CNAVRES 1100/8; I was just about to do a "mass mailout" to over 100 prior service persons. Why - because this is what we are directed to do by our COC. I hate it! If your prior serevice you know we're here and you'd look us up if you wanted to join right?! So if you get the letter and you want us to stop the "spam snail mail" here's some help:
  1. Call them and tell them not intrested
  2. Call them and tell them you're intrested can you work with an Re-Code 3P (personality disorder) - we can't by the way
  3. Tell them you have asthma.
  Look everyone's trying to do a job that's what it boils down to. It's prettty sad I don't even know what a CNAVRES 1100/8 is. Life is full of good and bad - My husband was a MM Nuke and he love his job and got through the training but he HATED the BOAT and the "STUPID PEOPLE"
  Good luck to all
  T-S
• People really need to open their eyes about the Navy. Instead of using this to just openly blast the navy apart (which is something i could most aptly do), i just want to convey to the people reading this site that even though the webmaster may indeed (by his own admission) be biased against the navy, it is in actuality a good look at what is ahead for you if you are thinking about joining the navy.
•  I joined the navy as an EM nuclear technician, not even needing to take the nuke test because my scores were so high (a personal point of pride). I then went to boot camp where i was the best recruit in the devision, i never got single out, i missed one point in all of bootcamp yadda yadda.  I then went to nuke school, which after the extremely dry environment i realized that i was NEVER going to be a nuclear tech.  This took me 4 weeks to figure out, and i feel damn lucky that i did figure it out so fast.
         I intentionally failed my subsequent classes so that i would be processed out of the program and into a new rating.  The other options of using drugs and captain's mast weren't appealing to me at the time.  I didn't get my enlistment bonus, it was worth  8,000 dollars not to become a nuclear technician. Even though i played by the navy's rules, i was still very much my own person, to the point really that my entire life was a lie and i played the part only to get by.  I was never "trained" by the navy, the way that THEY "train" people.  Senior Chief Fires (the man in charge of my class in school) told me one day that he was upset, he couldn't influence me in any way, and that i needed to get with the program.  I chose to leave nuke school, and i am still very happy with that decision.
             I then chose to become a sonar technician, and signed up for submarine duty because i felt that in submarines i would actually DO something interesting, even if it was going to be hard work.  During my submarine time i enjoyed the first few underways, the thrill of discovering something new and exciting and all the technical marvels that existed inches away from me at all times enchanted me.  I was totally engrossed!  After two weeks had elapsed (the navy works fast in some ways -wink-) i was starting to become disenchanted with my job.  I always worked very hard, but i learned quite quickly that working very hard will likely drive you to a depression for a great many reasons that anyone who has done the job will understand.  Then everything happened, which was to shape my navy life.
         I had something horrible happen in my life, two weeks before my six month deployment to the pacific.  My little brother Russell James Heinichen commited suicide by driving off of a cliff on the beach near my town Ferndale.  I was rushed home, with the thought that i would be fit and ready to come on deployment in two weeks.  Of course i wasn't.  I found out later that i should have not been allowed to go on that deployment as stated in the navy's own rules on what to do during a family members death, especially a suicide.  I came back from my two weeks of emergency leave to pack that night, jetlagged, angry, and sad, for my deployment the next morning.  I decided to talk to a chaplain that night because i was thinking of taking my own life, and those of my entire chain of command, specifically the people responsible for making such a poor decision.  the chaplain told me that i was just trying to get out of deployment, and that i wasn't going to.  I remember her name, LTCMDR Gomulka.  Of course I was trying to get out of deployment, but that was because it was an act of self preservation.
            So, i went on deployment.  I figured i wasn't going to become a fugitive from the law and just up and leave the navy.  I wanted to serve my country, i felt that i was strong enough to do what i had said i was going to do, to truly serve the United states.  I stood my six hours of boring sonar watch, ate, played computer games to dull the constant pain of loss and need to be with my family.  Sometimes i wouldn't sleep, i had insomnia.  Then i was labelled as a shitbag for falling asleep on watch, which every sonarman does, has done, and will do again.  Even though i fell asleep on watch once in a while, When i was awake, listening to the sounds of the ocean, i had time to think.  I would just sit there and cry, a silent cry, knowing that the wolves around me would jump on any show of weakness, but i couldn't help myself.
         I recieved an email from my dad that my sweet old great grandma died. This was sad but not really so, she had written some books on her life that i had read, i was very happy because if she was going somewhere in the universe, it was heaven.  Then, i got news from my captain that my grandfather Henry Heinichen had died.  My grandfather meant the world to me.  He was adopted, like me, and he cherished me as his grandson and made me feel part of the family.  I joined the navy over all other branches of service because he had flown planes for the navy in WW2, and that i thought i could be a great man, just like him.  I was so young and naive. I was very sad to hear about my grandpa dying, and i miss him to this day.  I am writing this from my computer in his old RV, which was given to me from him in his will.  It is hard to deal with such things.  When we pulled into Singapore, i went out and looked for something to take my mind off things, wine and women.  I had plenty of both, even if i paid for both.  I then got word that from my captain telling me with a smile that my best friend (since 4th grade) Alberto Gil died from Carbon monoxide poisoning.  With A Smile.  I can't tell you how much of a man Mike P. Holland is, i will let you decide for yourself.  Then, a little later, a car full of friends from my high school died in a car accident, where only two of the five lived.
         So, there i was, imprisoned on a ship theoretically protecting all i love while everyone dies back home.  I felt lost, confused, sad, eruptingly violent.  I had to contain whatever anger i had so that i wouldn't end up in a body bag or in jail by releasing that anger.  I got some of it out through friendly fights on the boat.  My rack mate, a nuke, got into a fight that i started.  It was over clothes, i put my nasty 3 day old poopey suit on his freshly cleaned and made bed.  he was pissed, and i didn't give a fuck, and then we fought like animals.  I let him punch me about 10 times in the face at one point, because the pain of his punches felt better then the pain in my heart.  Afterwords, he thanked me because it was such a stress reliever and he felt so much better.  I thanked him too.  Whatever we could do to get by.  So, after an extended deployment, losing great people in my life, dealing with what a deployment is, having no life, wishing for others to die and myself as well, i came home to a loving family waiting for me at the pier.
         Coming to my home port was wonderful, i can't express in words what it meant to me, but it was the best and most needed day of my life.  208 days of hell.  I am fortunate they did come, because i might had fallen into a pit of self misery and sadness that i may have never crawled out of.  That reaffirmation of thier love to fly across the US for just a few days to see me, i'll never forget it.  Then they left, and here i was, to face the monster that is the US navy.  I didn't care about my work, didn't give the smallest amount of care for my work, i was no longer a good worker, i hated my chain of command, so naturally i got into trouble.  Showing up 5 minutes late for work? i get a counseling chit, while my boss, my LPO, shows up 15 minutes AFTER i do, that same day.  My LPO does not get a counseling chit, even though he had no good reason as well. The only thing that kept me going was knowing that i was going to get my GI bill, that i could go to any school i wanted, that it would all be over.  In the end, that juicy steak had no meat good enough for me to want to take a bite.  I had to get out of the navy.
         This meant more counseling chits for my chief, he was a happy man, he was getting what he wanted, a paper trail to get me off of the submarine.  I went to captains mast finally for going to sleep on watch ( i was rubbing my eyes, standing up, but in navy terms to a chief, it means "sleeping").  I had told my duty LPO that i hadn't gotten enough sleep the night before.  He put me on watch anyways, I drank a ton of coffee to stay awake, and i got very tired 2 hours into my watch.  I start rubbing my eyes to stay awake, and a chief from the submarine moored next to ours says "hey shipmate why don't you wake the fuck up."  I told that chief that i was awake, or else i wouldn't be rubbing my eyes.  The chief thinks i'm being smart with him(which he was right), and goes to inform my duty officer that i was sleeping on watch, to in essence, get back at me.  An inquiry happens, and they jokingly say that i would be strung up and killed if this was a warzone.  I didn't find the humor in the situation.  This first class petty officer in charge of my duty gets dropped from being a Duty LPO and still retains his rank, i get kicked out of the navy.  If the people running the inquiry were to follow navy's rules of accountability, the first class petty officer, making the poor desicion that he made, should have been demoted, along with a possible demotion of the duty officer and the duty chief.   This is because i followed all the rules that the navy required of me, i told my superiors that i was unfit that day to stand duty because of my lack of sleep. By kicking me out, the navy saved thier more valuable men (Master Chief Dobush, and LT can't remember his name) both of which had been in for 15 years plus.  So naturally, the bad desicion fell to me (the "little guy").
             I went to captains mast, a pile of carefully prepared counseling chits prepared by my chief, smiling captain putting on his mean boy face.  The captain goads me into a debate about the merits of watchstanding, which i prove to him that the only purpose i have is to take a bullet so anyone else will know whats going on for sure, just in case they miss the sound of the bullet being fired.  Likely, it would be a sniper, so i wouldn't have a chance in hell, standing watch in my well illuminated box entirely made of windows.  The captain didn't like this correct use of logic, and told me to "Be quiet Seaman Apprentice Heinichen".  The use of my new rank (i went E-4 to E-2) i suppose was to try to intimidate me into silence.  I didn't care about my job, so it didn't matter at all.  I wouldn't hire my captain as my lawyer.  Keep in mind, this is at my CAPTAINS MAST.  He must have felt like he had lost that argument, so he went to talk to me about acts of terrorism, and how they could be prevented, specifically the 9/11 attacks.  I told him that it might have been possible to prevent those attacks if the different organizations had pooled thier resources, which is supported by the immediate restructuring of our bureau system with the formation of the department of homeland security(the government works fast when it sees an immediate need).  The captain had enough, because he couldn't respond with anything except intimidating remarks about how i'll never amount to anything, I'll end up flipping burgers for the rest of my life at Mcdonalds.  I told him that was impossible, i was fired from Mcdonalds because they couldn't support my school schedule and i wasn't going to change my hours.  You can't go back to Mcdonalds after they have fired you.  Does this do me any credit? No, i just wanted to provoke my captain into making the decision to kick me out of the navy, and i told him and the rest of my chain of command present that i was quite happy with leaving the navy, that i had wanted to do so for a long time, specifically after the treatment i had recieved by the navy after my brother had died.
         I felt great, and i tasted a little vengence.  I had just proven to the entire chain of command (present at the captains mast) how much of an idiot my captain really is, and that he was stupid enough to afford me the opportunity to prove so in front of such a large audience.  I wanted to leave the navy, i had decided that a long time ago.  I had to leave now!  After what my captain's choice to keep me on for deployment had done to me.  Later i found out the choice to keep me on board was from my Chief of the Boat a certain Master Chief Jim Burgess.
         Revenge doesn't suit me well , but after all that i finally gave in a little. to give in even a little more would have meant death for my captain, my CoB, and my chief, maybe my PO1 LPO (i say maybe because he was so much of a dumb Ape-like character that i think he was force fed what to do from my chief.)  I think a lot of these emotions of sorrow looked for someone to come out on,  to say "its him, its his fault".  It is a horrible thing to have to go through.
  To kill, or not to kill, that was the question. It came down to a cost benefit analysis, which in the end not killing them ended up being the wiser decision.  The analysis didn't stop me from dreaming about bringing my high quality Seal Revolver knife to work and slashing my captains throat, my CoBs throat, my chiefs throat, and my first class's throat for taking me away from my family after seeing how much they needed me, and taking responsibility for my own actions and killing myself for choosing to join the navy.  I don't expect people to remotely understand how i could feel this way, most people will never feel that way in thier lives, and i hope they never have to go through what i had to go through.  I am thankful to god i didn't do those horrible things, and that i was able to learn from them, and contrary to the above information, i am a great and loving person, i love my family dearly, i work, i go to school, i want to be productive, to be happy, to do whats right.
   I am the better for learning about myself, and being able to control myself under the most stress and pain and agony a person can endure and not break.
         I was so messed up you may be wondering, why didn't i get counseling?  First, no counselors on a submarine on deployment.  Second, once i pulled into port, i had to fight my command for any sort of counseling at all.  I told them i was going to get some counseling, and it was great to have someone to talk to who wouldn't be out to stab me in the back constantly.  Our Submarine work schedule got so high and intense that i didn't have energy to go to counseling.  I was literally drained, i felt like i was 70 years old, frail, tired, my hair started falling out, my chest had random pains in it, my doc said i had an irregular heartbeat.  My mother (a registered nurse) told me that all those are symptoms of extreme stress.  It wasn't hard for me to figure out where all that stress came from.  I used to joke about my job, how much time i was at work.  We would pull out to sea for a month, then pull back in for a week, offload and onload 50+ torpedo's and missiles for a week, and then go back out for another month.  This schedule lasted for about a year, this is after we had gotten back from deployment, and our one month standown.  I would count my hours everyday that i was at work while i was in port, as a competition to see how many i would use the next week i was in port.  Two fond memories are the weeks where i worked for 125 hours, and then went out for a week, and came back in and worked 130 hours.  Every 3 days i had duty, meaning, two days of normal work, one day of 24 hours of work.  I was miserable.  A submarine helps you appreciate everything.  The sun, the sky, the grass, the little puppies, little children, WOMEN, the air, flowers, you look at everything as if its the first time.  You also come to the core of yourself and realize who you are.
         So, in recap, I ended up getting kicked out of the navy because my chiefs plan of writing a ton of counseling chits about me eventually worked.  I got processed out as committing a major offense, General discharge under honorable conditions. (falling asleep on watch) which is not a major offense in the civilian world, and the details of that offense were so poorly dealt with its a wonder it was even allowed to be called "JUSTICE"(the official navy term).
             I am proud to say that i never gave in, my heart, my mind, my personality, they are all still mine, and are largely unchanged, as miraculous as that may sound.  The navy tried to rob me of that, to take what is inherently mine.  You don't TAKE that from people, you don't take that from me.
  Writing this has been a great relief, and i feel for anyone who has had to go through the submarine navy.  We have done the hardest job a man can do.  Now i'm going to college, living a normal, amazing life, and enjoying every precious second.  I spent exactly 3 years, 7 months, and 28 days in the US navy, almost making my contract.  In the end, it wasn't worth it.  Will you join?
  
  As for my question, knowing all of this, how can i get my discharge upgraded from General, under Honorable conditions (comission of a major offense), to an honorable discharge, so that i may collect the GI bill that is so due for my sacrifice, heart, body, mind, and soul.  Thank you.
• The navy is a collection of false pride, half truths, backstabbing behavior, and generally psychotic retards who only excel at "doing what they are told." Personally i joined the navy thinking just the opposite and was really proud to be serving my country like i was... until i got to my first command and saw what the "real navy" was like. I also used to think "well maybe it's just a bad command" but you tend change your opinion from taking volunteer assignments to ships and seeing the same thing. Also to mention, the abundance of people who transfer into your command all seemingly (oddly enough) to complain about the same things... see a pattern here?Reading some of the commentary by the people who think the webmaster is full of crap made me laugh. They are a written reminder of the exact reason why people leave the navy... we leave usually because we retain some ounce of our personality prior to the enlistment. We can't help it if we're not content with our life going that route, and then we're branded as "trouble" simply because we want something better for ourselves and to look out after younger kids and prevent them from making our mistakes. The navy talks all this trash about helping people, but in actually they just help them to kill themselves faster for a cause- their own agenda. Lets also point out that killing yourself doesn't have to result in death.No offense also, but for those who maintain the "you signed the contract without researching, suck it up" attitude, just F-off. No one willingly goes into a mistake and to be quite honest half truths, blatant lies, and misleading information do NOT consititute a faithful relationship between two parties (navy and yourself) on either a personal OR professional (something the navy is supposed to be) basis.Most people who defend the navy and it's system usually are the people who do it simply to justify a 20 year mistake. They feel upset when their entire life's work is belitted down before them even though it may simply be the truth of the matter. It's like religion in a way... people will fight for their god even if you can show them proof there is no god. You're simply a liar to them, and that is what (apparently) people like myself and the webmaster are to these people- liars.In closing, i simply state that i stand behind this webmaster 100% and not because of "negative navy" biasm, but because he provides a good site for people to have a real look at the navy and not just the slogans you read and watch on T.V. If you can't love people in parts, how can you dedicate yourself to the cause without knowing the good... AND the bad.Simple- you can't.Go navy... only if you're really desperate.-Honorably discharged IT2 J.S.

  PS> I was once considered a "golden boy" also, amazing how that changes once you start to question why you have to do things to subordinates that you don't understand. "Play the game"... well... ADULTS don't have to play games, now do we?

• Just wanted to let you know I hate agree with you on most of your views of the navy. I am an electrician aboard the OK Shitty in Norfolk. My question is 'do you know any way to get off early?' Not drugs, or in trouble but something that actually works. Like the gay thing, but too many have used it, so no way no how on that. If you know anything, let me know, of not I'll do my remaining 713 days and then begn to live my life. Thanks and keep up the great discouragement.
• Great site. I spent 4 years in Groton myself as an EM on the Miami from 98-02. I can totally related to your story. While I didn't have any drug problems (aside from binge drinking) I was called a "poison to the minds of junior personnel" in my last year on the pig.

  I got the fuck out when my time was up and abandoned nuclear power completely to avoid being reminded of my 4 years on Satan's Flagship. I'm now a professional journalist and I'm working on a series of stories and a screenplay about my time in the NAV. My hopes is to put something out so truthful that boats will actually ban the works from their libraries.

• There was a time that I used to wake up and see that there was something good that was going to happen in my life that day. I now see that it was when I was 10 years old and I thought that I would never have to worry about life. Now I wake up everyday and see that there really is no point in even getting up but yet I have to. For the people that I work for take muster I have realized that I am prisoner 8657 and that I lost all reminisce of what my first name was I am now only shurley. I once was what people thought to be a great and hard worker but after three years of someone breaking the spirit of a hard worker that I had I am now known as a dirt bag but yet I only have one bag and it is quite clean. That is the spirit de corps that the navy has instilled in me that they can take someone who once was a genuinely hard worker and take him and mold him into the piece of shit that they want to and tell them that the only real job they will ever have is the navy so to re-enlist is the one choice that they show me. I have never pushed to be something I am not but the navy seems to think that I am what they want but I am showing them otherwise and will never show them the truth that they are all actually worthless in the outside world.
• I have been in for almost 7 years as a seaman. I used to be a second class. I went to captains mast twice on shore duty. They got me for being U/A for 2 hours. Then they thought I was an alcoholic, so I have been in and out of treatment 3 times. Same diagnosis everytime alcohol abuse. Well when you have been where I have then you tend to drink a little. Needless to say I am still in. They canceled my shore duty and stuck me on a ship back out to sea. To top it off they are revoking my security clearance and trying to make me force convert to another rate. After 6+ years I think it is a little late for that. So I am trying to get out with an early separation and get on with my life. I figured out right now that I can make more money on unemployment than what I am making now. At 26 I am to old for these games and ready to go. Not many can say they came in and left as the same rank! They navy has a lot of potential to be very successful if it wasn’t lead by a bunch of backstabbing assholes!!
• you know, i've been fond of your website for a while now. my husband was a nuke, asked for help with his stress and anger, that didn't happen, and when he lost it on the boat, they de-nuked him, took away his special pays, and sent him elsewhere. now we're at LEAST 600 in the negative each month just to make our bills and buy food, and the captain of the boat just called ebcause our family advocacy caseworker finally managed to convince them that i deserved an explanation... you know hwat he did? he told me how our current situation is of our own making... we don't need a house, that's not a matter of shelter.
  
  what the hell? when he was an e-6 we could afford the damn house. now what are we supposed to do? move again? f that. i'm sick of the bullshit, and i seriously honestly really just want my honey back. he's getting fucked around at mental health, yesterday he was suppsoed to have an appt and they erased his name, wrote someone else in there, and then played stupid when he came in for his appointment.
  
  the navy is full of a bunch of self serving shipmate diggits that are just waiting for you to fall so they can either kick you in the balls or fuck you in the ass. i want my husband out of the navy NOW. They can fix him first, that'd be nice, but i don't see that happening. at least not before we freaking lose the house.
  
  between the two of us we'll have FOUR jobs just to make ends meet. That's how the navy repays you for your hundred hour work weeks and sweat.
  
  Feedback? Suggestions? I know they fucked you too... come on... tell me what to do... i want to go home. i want us to start new, have NORMAL jobs where we're home at night and on weekends. I want a human being for a husband and i'm damn tired of being told we over-extended ourselves. well hell, maybe you should have told us when you promoted him that there was a chance we should not count on having that money. navy's the only place i konw of that can dick you hard, cut your pay when you break down because they didn't help you, and then keep you around while your family starves. fuckers.
  have a lovely day. needed to vent.
  -Stephanie
• I just wanted to let you know what a great site this is. I've showed it to a bunch of buddies on the ship, and we all love it. I'm currently on a carrier as an MM2 nuke, and I must say that although I enjoy my basic job (maintenance, operating) dealing with the people and the crap is ridiculous. I've been in four years, and have four to go. But I love the site and keep up the good work.
  - Frank
• I stumbled upon this website after nearly six years after my nuclear naval experience.  I'm still trying to make sense of it all and how it relates to my life.
  
  I made it through the "nuke" pipeline as an electrician's mate.  No, I did not volunteer for subs even though I was very tempted.  I thought by going surface the experience would be vastly different and I would have time to pursue my educational goals.  LOL!  The only difference about the surface fleet that I could determine from my brief experience( I was on board the "IKE" CVN-69 from I think.. April  to June 21,2003) was the fact that women were aboard.  I had struggled with depression for quite some time even before joining the Navy.  I even told my recruiter about my suicidal ideations at the time.  In fact, I told one of the doctors at RTC that I struggled with depression and thoughts of suicide; he even wrote that in my medical file.  Anyway after going through prototype, I thought finally, I'm done with that insane schedule and lifestyle.  Hooray, I'm going to the fleet and I can actually put to use the knowledge that I received and maybe get more sleep.  Funny thing,
   my depression kept me up at nights, so I would surf the internet  at the BEQ at Ft. Eustis trying to meet girls (the Ike) was in drydock or something) and I would fall asleep only after drinking some fruity alcoholic drinks. (Hey, I like fruity drinks and wine!) Ship life was so alien.  Everyone around me took their rank so seriously.  That disgusted me.
  
  Finally, it all got to me --- the never ending feeling of failure and that everything that I would do was so futile, the constant swabbing of decks, the apathy of the system, the heat, not getting any nookie(I was still a virgin) because I was so depressed and my confidence in myself as a person was so degraded, the sleep dep, the disgusting ship food== who eats pizza with brocolli on it?, the ugly women who worked on the ship that began to look attractive, the double standards, and did I mention the sleep deprivation?  
  
  These factors in addition to my depression problem caused me to fragment to the point that I felt like I was splitting, voices would take me over, and I wanted to hurt people, so that in the end people would take me out.  I went to Captain's Mast for that breakdown.  Captain John Smith or was it John Brown...(some Captain with a common last name who wanted to make rear admiral...) anyway he screamed at me and told me how stupid and un-warrior like I was being, I was close to passing out from the whole ordeal.  I finally got a chance to defend myself... I told him that I was not trying to malinger and that the ship's doctor was wrong- that I did have it in my medical records that I struggled with depression.  I was asked about a supposed psych eval that I had at RTC.. (I never had that psych eval nor was it in my records...) although everyone insisted that I had one.  I was taking the generic form of Lexapro at the time because the first time I went to the navy shrink he affirmed that I did have a depression disorder and he actually seemed to be caring.  But when I had my major breakdown, some LTJG basically said that I did not have depression, I was just acting... I had a variety of personality disorders.  (Oh, did I mention that both the ship's head doctor and the on-duty physician both recommended that I should have killed myself instead trying to get help for my problems?  The ship's doc immediately took me off the Lexapro)  And, because of the way I used alcohol I was told I could easily become an alcoholic.  I mentioned that I was taking an SSRI, escitalopram,--- I did smile more frequently but I severely struggled to restrain myself from hurting other people.  I was a "happy" depressed person...numbed...ready to kill others and myself.  I had some rational thoughts during this time about either killing myself so I don't wind up hurting other people, or seriously trying to get some real help.  I chose the latter and when I was told that I had to work harder and get more signatures so I could qualify for whatever... I just couldn't take life anymore...  Anyways, what was I saying?  I told Captain John Smith that I would indeed do whatever he told me but that I was not sure I would survive on his ship nor that I was sure that I could operate safely around members of the crew...  He told me that he believed I did have a medical condition, but that he could not go against the ship's doctor.  I was administratively separated from the Navy due to a personality disorder Under Honorable Conditions.  I don't hate the Navy.  If people want to join, great!  If they don't, that's fine too!  I guess my problem is that I believe I deserved to be Honorably Discharged, and I know I will never get that vindication.  I didn't want to get kicked out of the service, not like that.  I guess I have to believe I did the right thing by trying to resolve my long-standing issues.  If you have a broken arm, don't you fix it if you can?  Anyway to anyone who may wish to join, you're not that important to the organization even if they put you through supposedly one of the expensive schools paying what is it $120000 for your nuke education.  I guess if I had a question is it is this:  I got that degree from Thomas Edison and I'm working on a Master's degree in a different field... is my naval career going to haunt me? - Ryan
• Yeah... I went through the whole boot camp experience only to get an ELMS after graduating. While I was in boot camp, they decided to drop me from being a Nuke just because I have a GED even though I have an A.S. in Computer Science. Then they decided to just discharge me because I had gone to mental facility when I was 12 because I acted up against my mom. Mental facility let me go after the 3 day hold and told me that I wasn't even supposed to be there. 6 years later, I got to find out they labeled me with some outragious disorder which would have caused me to get in a fight with an RDC.
  Civilian doctor didn't care that my last 2 therapists said I was fit for the military. God I hate those civilian contractors...
  I even spoke to the C.O. about getting a second opinion to get it revoked. SOB lied and I shipped home a week later.
  - Eric
• I hate the navy. This place is a waste of my time. I'm to smart to be here. And I'm way to loyal and trustworthy to be apart of these people. The guy that came in the navy with me; we flew togehter on the airplane, is getting kicked out for being 5 minutes late the other day. They say he's an alcoholic, when they gave hime a breathalizer test he blew a 0.003, not even mouthwash. I have no one here I trust even a little. I hate the navy and I honestly hate the seabees. I feel like I'm just trying to get through a couples of months but I'm walking down a hallway waiting for someone to stab me in the back. In a community were every one could look out for each other, people still follow the childish idea that to hurt others as much as you can will make up for how you feel inside about yourself. You can tell what kind of life people here have had. Some are the types that wasted too much time and could find no other way to live or survive. Some are so angry with someone !
  in their life that they need to hurt others to feel fulfilled. Some need to feel they have power in any way possible but still don't have enough will or confidence to get that feeling without pushing around someone lower than them. As a civilian you are not a part of a team. You make your own decisions. Your not taken care of by anyone. Your on your own. Your accomplishments are your own; good or bad. Here, I'm a part of a team. I do not make my own decisions. I'm am taken care by the team; good or bad. I am not the only one. My accomplishment are not my own and will not be accredited to me. Words are easily changed turned to mean something else, or to incrimminate. this seems more like a political gatherings of politicians trying more to find their own point to whatever program their trying to push and going about it with no direction as to were to go. I need to start over. With a new life. One that was not infected with the dirty ideas and schemes and backstabbing motives!
  that are all I've learned here. I thank my parents for raising me the way they did. I've never given in to this. I am trustworthy and no matter what I am a real person. I will always be me and will not be a bystander. I may not neccesarily have morals. But I have a standard for myself which I live by, and I can be a part of this charade any more.
  - Craig
• I am currently serving onboard the uss john c stennis (cvn-74) as a EM3 nuke. After reading the site I am glad to see that I am not the only person in this navy with the same views i have. For so long now i have been hating my life in the navy and wondering if i was the ONLY person who felt this way. Not a day has gone by that i havnt said "man, i really wish I had listened to mom" (who tried all she could to talk me out of joining).
  
  Now I spend every single day of my life working with belligerent assholes who seem to get no better joy than making other peoples life a living hell. I have reached a desperation point now and need serious help. The nuclear navy life has destroyed me as a person and made me hate life. I have never told anyone this except my fiance but now I need some help. After just a year in the navy back in prototype the stress, bullshit, and assholes ate through to my soul and I decided there was no hope for me now or in the future and it was time to take my own life. I had put a great deal of thought into how i was going to do it for many weeks.
  
  After alot of thought i had decided that asphyxiation was the best way. So one morning after the swings shift i pulled my car into our garage popped in my favorite cd and put it on my favorite song (lynard skynard's free bird), drank some nyquil to help me go to sleep, set my seat back and closed my eyes. But before the song could get over my roommate had came into the garage and said "lets go to dennys and get breakfast, Ill pay." Scared, desperate, and relieved. I quickly took it as an excuse to not carry through with my plan and went to dennys. Less than a month later i graduated from prototype and felt like a king. The pain was finally over!! or so i thought. I went home on my 40 days of leave and felt happy for the first time since joining the navy. While on leave i met a beautiful woman who i am now going to marry in less than 2 months.
  
  Shortly after arriving on the john c stennis I quickly realized that nothing had changed. It was all the same, except worst now. There was the same bullshit, same assholes, same damn navy. I have coped with the bullshit now for 8 month relying on my wonderful fiance to help me through. But now not even she can make me feel better. The stress and hatred is building up again to even worst than in prototype. Its even began to affect my sleeping and eating habits. The thoughts of suicide have returned. They are not as strong but they are there. I dont wanna die but there is nothing else i can do. The navy doesnt care how i feel or what i have to say. I cant tell them because they dont understand. But I thinking im nearing the end of my rope with all this shit. Its overwhelming me and I dont know who to talk to. Is there anything that I could do to get out without ruining the rest of my life (like the navy loves to do to people)? Or anything i can do here in the navy to help make all this stress and misery go away?
• hey man since last march i have been trying to get the command to send me to alcohol treatment but they keep giving me the cold shoulder even after several people on my command have been kicked out and on restriction for drinking problems and they always yell at us. do you know any loop holes on who i can fuck them for giving me the cold shoulder for so long. thanks FTN - Craig
• I wanted to give my little testimony about my time in the Navy.
  
  Let me tell you a little about myself.  2 weeks ago I was discharged for the navy after 3 years of service. I was formerly and STS3.  Always stiving to do my best in everything that I do.  I did everything of which I was asked.  Now having told you that I was merely a sonar technitian this isnt nearly the load of say a nuke or an A ganger.  But there is no happy place on a submarine that I know of.  
  
  Over the course of my stay on the boat my mind not being of the sort to do well with submarine service and being, as I later found out prone to depressive states do to various anxiety disorders, began to deteriorate.  Though because of my nature I contined on doing the best I could.  And as im sure you know they kept piling it on because performance on a boat as you well know promotes workload and the whole thing became exponential and I really began to lose it.  
  
  Driving around for hours in the desert, mutilation, insomnia, thogh probably better desribed as somniphobia a fear of sleep, or really a the disturbing realization that sleep will make it seem that your return to hell the next day will come ever so much quicker.  It wasnt the submarine that bothered me.  The low oxygen, no sun, extended month long or longer missions to oblivion.  The orses the tre's. The drills. The sra's none of thats what got to me.  It was the day in and day out mental hell played upon us all by our superiors. or worse by our peers. The constant fear of everything you say being used against you the back stabbing.  Watching good men over time turn to the dark side and become monsters.  The total lack of sense in a great many of the things that are asked for you.  The total absense of a daily sense of acoomplishment.  And especially above all else.  The total and utter absense of having anything worth looking forward to ever at any time.  In fact its almost magical to watch as I did more than once.  When someone crosses the milestones of less than a year left then less than a month, and less than a week.  Reaching various stages of regaining a sense of expectation in their everpresent longing.  Something to desire that seems attainable in their nearing future.  Something real.  The color seems to come back into their skin.  Their eyse brighten.  A smile returns to their face.  The entire time I was there it seemed as though I was being trained.  Coditioned like a dog belonging to mr. Pavlov.  Consistently having giant steaks placed before my eyse and as soon as I begin to drool over the coming insurgency of flavor to my mouth the thing is jerked away and instead i am given a rap across the head.  And eventually you are meant to learn to not bother with your drooling and desires.  You need only brace yourself for the coming rap across your skull.
  
  My experince with getting out of the navy was different that yours.  I hated nearly every moment of it.  Sure there's those bucketful's of experiences that I will never forget or cherish though I can never say that it was worth it.  However where you asked for help and were sluffed to the side.  I was lucky.  The man I worked for a senior chief sonarmen.  Probably the best man ive ever met in the Navy, and also without a doubt one of the best men ive met in my life.  I talked to him twice about the issues I was having before the final time in which I was carted away.  Though fearing the inevitbale jeerings of my peers and the command, and also my undying predjudicial mistrust of anyone in the navy, especially those with a long tenure of service, I never fully stated to him in full what was going on in my life and my mind.  I regret that now.  But eventually when my mind really had begun to spiral it was actually him who approached me seeing I suppose the empty look in my eyse and constantly somewhat disheveled appearance that hardly matched my ethic of work.  He asked me "Are you doing Ok" and on that day I said I wasnt.  I told him things were looking pretty grim and they were.  My social life had just turned to tatters in part because of the navy, I had crashed my car, and I was well over my head at work.  He then instead of asking me.  Instructed me to see one of the family support counselors on the base.  And told me that I was to hold nothing back in what I said to them.  And as a result of that I didnt.  I told the woman I saw everything right down to the mutilations and the ever present looming of the reaper in the form of suicide.  She then promptly told me it wasnt her thing and Ordered me to a hospital.  Whre I stayed for near a week before being discharged to the same man who had indrectly sent me there in the first place.  I felt bad when I left there.  I knew I wasnt going back to the boat ever again and I knew it was going to hurt. I appologized to him infact.  He told me it was entirely unnecsary.  Infact explained to me that it wasnt for everyone and that it made me no less a man.  It was all kind of shocking for me.  It was the last thing I ever expected to hear from a kahki mouth.
  
  The other thing I must bring up is the Navy's Mental Health Unit at the Naval Hospital in Balboa, San Diego.  A place known by anyone who has been there as One West, and its accompanying half way facility One North.  I've heard alot of horror stores about mental hospitals as im sure everybody has.  However I cant imagine there being a finer institution than this one in all the world.  Being in the position that I was of being considered a danger to myself I could not have been treated with more respect given the circumstances.  It was a great learning experience for me and while of course pushing drugs like they were trying to turn a pofit showed a true caring about me as not only a sailor, a belonging of the U.S. Government, but aslo as a human being which I feel was given even more weight than the former.
  
  In the end I was given the option to leave submarines forever and find a surface boat somewhere, which after some discusion with people in that community I have decided is likely a better life and something more similar to the dreams we all had when we came in though certainly still the same monster at heart but perhaps tolerable at least.  However, my heart had already hardened to the navy so I took my other option which was to leave under the circumstance of the surface navy wanting to downsize a bit, and I took that option givng me a full honorable discharge with not a mention of what landed me there in the first place.  Not that im ashamed really. But its more convienient that way.  And that is what I took.  So I'm out now and havnt been this happy in three years.  And its odd now after hearing on my way out the scoffing and remarks of people in the navy and seeing the demeaning remarks from the people replying in disgust to you on your web page.  Its odd because after my reentry into the real world and even before that.  Not a single person on the outside has made such a remark to me.  The only response I get without even explaining to them the hidden and truly disdainful portions of the life, is awe that anybody could make that their life for even a time of a month or two.  Let alone spending an equal time to that continuously underwater without sun or breath of air.
  
  I was really lucky.  If it wasnt for my boss at the time, a great man for sure. The road I was heading down im really quite certain would have lead to my ultimate death.  And these sorts of men are a rarity in the Navy I know for a fact.  I soon found out after being released from the institution that he was heavily reprimanded by both the Cob and the XO directly for allowing my issues to be adressed outside the hull.  To be adressed by a proffesional.  A proffesional which in my discharge report clearly stated that my continuation on a submarine was a signifcant danger to my health.  It is the feeling I get that  the so called "mission requirements" of the boat are more important than a single mans life.  At least on a submarine.  And I understand where they are coming from.  People are at a shortage on boats.  Especially good quality junior workerbees.   And profesional competetiveness combined with fear of the word "no" in acknowledgement of reality creates a mentality of ruthlessness that in the end takes blindly from the souls of the people under their rule.  From the way that it was presented to me what was said.  Apperently it was considered better for the sake of man power and accomplishment to live with the 'mere' risk of me blowing my brains out rather than to insure my ultimate mental and physical safefty.
  
  Its always wierd hearing people talk about the Navy.  Its always refered to in a way that makes it seem like a living breathing thing with arms and legs and a completel mind of its own.  And in a way thats true.  I can personify the navy in my mind with a very specific personality.  However, I cannot think of a single person in my mind whom I would be capable of pointing and saying HIM... he is the Navy.  Its almost as if each and every one of us while we were in were like a living cell that made up this larger body that was the Navy.  Its odd even seeing it written always with a capital N like its a proper name.  And equally as such hardly anybody especailly on a boat considers themselves to be "the Navy."  Its just this huge set of unfortunate circumstances that leads to tragedy.  Amplified inside the confines of little steel chunks of hell that broke off and floated to the surface that the governement fills with a bunch of souls and keeps shoving them back under the water with their sacrafice inside hopeing maybe satan will take the whole lot back.  Sacraficial sailor and all.
  
  Also as a note to be used to anybody in right now who is considering ways of getting out.  It isnt difficult.  If you are on a boat the likely fact is you probably need only to tell the truth to the right person in the right way.  Be sure thought that likely it is the circumstance that no such person exists on your boat.  The fleet and family support centers are a valubale resource, and can be your foot in the door to treatment of whatever issues clinical or created by the boat you may have with your own metnal health.  And in many cases one of the biggest aspects of such treatments is to properly remove you from your unit.  Also.  If you are facing a discharge under circumstance that are anything less than honorable, or if you are considering taking an action that will earn you as such.  I will say first that while I considered it for a long while, think before you leap into such a thing.  Often there is another way out that will earn more credit to your name.  However, should such a thing be the case.  Ignore every last bleeding soul who tells you that you will be flipping burgers or digging ditches for the rest of your life.  I am yet to have met anybody who earned themselves an OTH discharge who was unable to find a job that didnt pay more than their Navy gig, and in the transien unit I was in prior to my seperation I met alot.  Infact after talking to several people who had applied for and been interviewed for and been excepted to several jobs had often never been asked for the charachter of their service.  And if they had.  Their only concern ever seemed to be if the offence which warranted the other than honorable discharge was as the result of an offence that would be considered a felony by civilian law.  As it happens in most states use and possesion of small amounts of controlled substances is considered a misdemeanor.  I beleive that people in the Navy (the uncomprehensible being) is forced to spread these lies about your life being ruined and this kind of thing or else the navy may find itself with a remarkable retention problem.  Always remember.  Anything that anybody in the Navy tells you should always be considered to be false until proven absolutely true through the use of outside sources.  Infact the navy recognizes this flaw of trust in itself manifested by all of its many redundant checks such as tagouts.  Infact in life in general you always use cation in just taking somebodys word for it.  Especially when your's or somebody else life is on the line.  And in the case of getting out of the navy that life is most certainly yours and should be given the utmost care.
  
  Well, as im sure you recieve many of thse kinds of emails a day, as almost every submariner who sees this site is certain te feel compelled to reply, but I'll say my piece anyways this is a real valubale source of information and I wish I could have discovered something like it before I had made the most fool hardy mistake of my life.  And and if it has prevented even one person from making that same mistake you have succeeded beyond the bounds of comprehension.
  
  Take Care
  
  
  Brett
• "Thank God for like minded people", I am in the navy and have been for 2 years.. I have been on restriction and have done my share of extra duty. Now I am currently seeing a phsyciatrist who tells me it shouldn't take that long for me to get a medical discharge, if that isn't a go, then marijuana shall become my long departed friend once more.. I just wanted to thank you for this site.. It gives people like me, an obvious place to see that I am not the only one out there that is just incompatible with the navy.
  Or maybe it's not incompatible.. Maybe it's like my phsyc says "your too inteligent for the military, it was designed by genious's, to be run by idiots." What the hell was I thinking? thanks
  - casey
• CNAVRES 110/08... what the hell is this and why do they keep sending me this letter? I got (the hell) out of that zoo a few years ago and some recruiter keeps bugging me....
  - michelle
• Man. I did my 6 years as a nuke ET ('90-'96), spending time on SSN-701,LaJolla. All that was a long time ago, but coming across your site really got me going back and getting pissed off all over again :-) It's good to remember how much it truly sucked.
  - jeff
• I'm currently a nuke EM2 assigned to the PCU Ronald Reagan (CVN-76), and I have to say I loved your website. I know as nukes we're often in the minority of those who hate what we do, but I think it has something to do with our intelligence level....we were taught to think for ourselves and question authority, not to bend over and take it up the ass without so much as a whimper. Keep up the good work, and if you need more stories of hate, discontent, and the hypocrisy inherent in the nuclear navy, there are about 300 of us nukes on the Reagan with stories to tell....thanks again, and good luck!!
• Dude I am so with you on this site. 11 years in (re-upped before getting to a ship). I changed my mind about staying in when I saw the XO walk on everyone's racks because they weren't made perfectly...and the fact I was 24 with a midnight curfew. I was always in trouble because of my political mouth (I was a CTO). I almost got the shaft over my Illinois License plates of FTN 36 (Ship's Hull number).
• I came across your site while looking up CNAVRES1100/8 that I got from the Navy. Brings back alot of memories man. I was surface the entire time, but I was on a Frigate. Yeah, they are still around, even though the Navy website says that they aren't. I did 53 months straight onboard because of a shortened 'A' and 'C' school. A thing I remember onboard that ship (FFG-43 USS Thach): There was this OS3 onboard who was so stupid. The division ended up kicking him out and he went to the deck department for the rest of his time onboard. When it was time for taking the advancement test, he took the OS2 test because that was his real rate, and it was %100 passing at the time. So now you have this OS2 onboard who is completely undeserving of his crow. And then he is able to get BAH, and get out of working parties etc. etc. Anyway bad memories. Cool site. PAPERCLIP
• I am completely with you man. Class 9306. The only difference in where I went and where you went was the support I had outside the Navy. During my 4+ year sea tour I was constantly in awe of what the leaders in the Navy did to me and other people like me. Did they forget that we were volunteers. Try to think of one of your bosses in the Navy that treated you like a volunteer.

  Similiar to what another poster said though, I am sorry that it got to you that bad. It happens way too often. BTW I am still in...for another 68 days. I decided that I was going to get something back for the almost 5 years that they stole from me. I for one think that "accelerate you life" is the perfect slogan. I was going gray in boot camp. So I decided to go back to portotype to teach and spread the truth about the Nuclear Sub Force. There are people out there that the program is good for. The navy is the best that they can ever do. But then there are people like you and me too. I came in wanting to blow shit up...I am now a concientous objector...came in a republican, now a liberal. In
  addition to helping kids that want out to get out at prototype before hitting the fleet, I have spent over $100k on my education. BS Nuclear Engineering, Masters in Electrical Engineering. You would not believe the opposition I have had trying to get a real education fromthe ! place that advertises the best educational benefits. Many Master Chiefs wont even speak to me because they know who I am what I believe in and that they cannot conform me, becasue that is what they want...a navy full of "yes Chieffers"

  Sorry if disjointed, just stumbled across your site while working on my thesis. Ciove me a shout if I left something out that you are interested in knowing. In the three years I have been at prototype 6 student have killed themselves...and they arent even in the fleet having to go to sea. Only 2000 student in a year so the numbers are not good. - Dan

• Hi after browsing your website I would say we have a lot in common. I served in the New Navy onboard the carrier USS Carl Vinson as a member of reactor dept. Nuke school class 9004 prototype at Idaho Falls, Idaho. Life on board a Navy vessel can be quite stressful. You are seperated from friends and family, Sleep deprived do to inhuman watch schedule, Malnourished from the crap they call food and have little to no time to relax. It was no surprise to me to find that about 60% of my department smoked pot at sea to ease the tension. So when I tested positive I thought it was total overkill to discharge me. But Se Lave, Its had no real effect on my life I just don't tell many people what happened. Any way sorry to ramble, I enjoyed the site
  thanks, Matt
• i wanted to write and say thanks for a great web site. i did a search on cnavres1100/8 and came to your site. i was discharged 2 years ago on an oth , and they still send me recruiter letters . i couldn't reenlist if i wanted.
• hey not really a question for you but i just thought this was the coolest website. i am actually in the navy right now in the submarine force. i totally am starting to despise it. i have been in for 3 years and only have a year left. everything u say in this site is so true. makes me realize i am not alone or crazy for thinking that this place is a fucking looney bin. i was still unsure if u had been kicked out or if u had gotten out on honorable discharge. i tell u if i am ever recalled i'll do anything to get out of it.
  well alright then. peace out
• I've been in for about 5 1/2 years now, and although I'm in a field far removed from Nukes (I'm a CT), myself and many of my colleagues can certainly agree and empathize with many of the testimonials made on this website.

  This is precisely the kind of balance in opinions that young people need to see before making the decision to join not just the Navy, but any branch of the armed forces. In fact, I would love to see additional websites addressing other services.

  But this much is certainly true. I've been in a joint-service environment for my entire career, and between my own observations and those of the 20+ year veterans I also associate with, the kinds of abuse and sadistic mismanagement endemic to the Navy are present in every other branch. (However, to a much lesser extent in the Air Force, as they actually possess an extensive accountability system, and long ago realized the importance of their enlisted corps.)

  My biggest problem with the military, above all others, is the utterly capricious nature in which one is treated. From the "command darlings" to the proclaimed "shitbags", I GUARANTEE that there is no one in the military who cannot attest to some utterly random fortune or malevolence befalling particular individuals. This is a phenomena that is inherent to the nature of life itself. The problem arises from the fact that in the military, you are effectively deprived of your means to adapt on an individual and selective basis to challenges that may arise. There's no "quitting", there's no voluntary relocation...there's little chance to dramatically alter one's own life in such a way as to assist in addressing particular issues.

  As a result, the young sailor who shows up at a party where there happen to be drugs (completely unbeknownst to him), could likely find his professional life ruined and his navy career abruptly terminated, for what amounts to little more than fate. His particular fate would ultimately be determined by a hierarchy of individuals, each with competing and different interests, and each with less of a personal stake in an individuals welfare the further up the chain of command they lie. You're told that if something goes wrong for you, that you have to "deal with it". Well, this isn't working at McDonald's...when things "go wrong" in the military, they have the distinct potential of going catastrophically wrong.

  It's the hypocracry and capriciousness of the bureacracy's power that offends me the most. How it is that someone who's had stellar evals and is considered to be the best amongst their peers can be relegated to some god-awful punishment duty on some forlorn ship, whereas as the girl recently busted for fraternizing with someone 3x's her senior in age and rank lands a coveted position at an embassy? How the kid who shows up for work 5 minutes late after being called back in after a 24 hour watch may very well be sent to mast, but the kid who consistently shows up to work drunk (and thus putting many lives at risk) receives what amounts to a slap on the wrist? It's disgusting, a pattern of behavior that would never be tolerated in the civilian market (because of how wildly unproductive it would be!), and SHOULDN'T be tolerated in the military.

  Also, the association of those who served in "actual combat" during times of war to the contemporary Navy, is absurd! I certainly can't speak as if I'd been there, but ask a veteran who's still familiar with today's Navy if things have changed. They will invariably answer "Yes". At which point, ask them if during WWII, whether or not the Navy found it more important that people have a wealth of "collateral duties" than they're actual job experience. I'm sure I know what the answer will be here, too. Then finally, see how many PO1's and chiefs you can name that merely rode their collaterals and their evals to their ranks, yet couldn't do the same job you did worth a damn. You think a wartime commander would have EVER tolerated that?

  I have entire notebooks filled with similar observations about the military, as I've had plenty of time to write them and ample material to bolster me, so I won't ramble too long here. Suffice to say that those who level criticisms at the author of this site because of his drug usage are missing the point entirely. There is, indeed, something wrong with the way the Navy conducts its business in general.

  (As I am still active-duty currently, I would request that the webmaster not include my email address, should he decide to post this.)

• I was feeling depressed so I was blaming the faults of the world on myself. I told a guy some of what I say is probably bullshit. here is his reply

  I don't think most of what you say is bullshit at all. It's dead accurate.
  I had my own share of harrowing times, too. I pulled a .45 on my buddy who
  had just admitted banging my old lady as he passed by my on watch to go on
  liberty, for instance.

• An RO well that explains allot. Ro's were hard to come by on the boats I were on. Most of the time the RO's were in port and starboard rotation. It really sucked for them. Those 23 1/2 hour duty days I had to endure were hard enough. I recall never having time in port to relax or catch up on desperately needed sleep. Steam leaks are a nightmare for anyone who worked in the engine room. The first boat I was on actually had a reactor coolant leak. one of the pipes developed a 12 inch crack. On the way in to Holylock the packing on the stern planes failed and the ram drifted to the full dive position. Talk about scary, we were operation the tea kettle with a cracked pipe and running at full speed with the stern planes chain failed into a null position. Luckily the packing never completely failed and we never went
  into a full dive.

  I don't know if you had ever heard of the Sandlance. But if my memory serves me correctly after replacing the main propulsion shaft bearings, I believe it was the Sandlance, the bearings failed actually cutting a grove in the shaft just past the stuffing box. By the time they realized what was going on their was sand blowing by the shaft seals into the boat.

  Later it was determined that if they had continued for a few more days without detecting the problem the shaft may have actually slid out of the
  boat leaving that 3 ft or so hole unplugged. Then there was the time were EB had installed ferrous bolts on the outer mating flanges to the torpedo tubes. One of the ships actually had corrosion around the bolts and water leaking in while underway. No way to stop that
  mess if the ring ever let go. That was on one of the original 41 for freedom SSBN's.

  One of the scariest times I had was sitting in Portsmouth shipyard tied up next to the pier. At about 7 am the collision alarm went off. Strange,
  because we had been welded to the pier for a year and sea trials was 1 month off. I started topside to investigate and upon reaching topside and looking out all I saw was an extremely large anchor. Just as I let go of the handrails and fell back into the ship the ship was slammed into by an 800 ft oil tanker. Defiantly scary. Luckily the ship was not seriously damaged, but I tell going on alpha trials when all they did was send divers over the side to inspect damage instead of placing the ship in dry-dock and x-raying the hull sure was nerve racking.

  I could go on and we all have our scary sea story's, but I must say that if you have actually been so traumatized by what went on onboard the Dallas, you might consider looking at that web site. You might find it interesting and feel that many of the things you find their relate to you.
  www.ncptsd.org

  please note: I visited that website and found that over 30% of people who go into war zones acquire PTSD!!!!! I do not like 1 in 3 chances.

• Hey man, great site. I'm nuke also, getting kicked out for pot (7 years in)...the bastards are trying to make an example of me, AGAIN! (2 years ago I was busted down from frocked E-6 to E-4 for a hazing incident the RO classified as a "little bit less than horseplay" because they wanted to make an example of us) So they're taking me to Special Courts-Martial and trying to give me a federal drug conviction and all that shit. My question is, do you have any advice for what kind of options I still have available to me, what with this possible conviction hanging over my head, but with the education I have. PS I hate nuclear power bullshit. I'm an MM, but hate mechanical crap.
• Well the other day I recieved this weird letter that I must get ahold of my Recruiter as soon as possable for my CNAVRES1100/8 for which he has a hold on me. Well whatever that meant I did a little research and realized that it is just a Navy Reservist Recruiter SKEEM. I guess the letter is made to look so official but is actually so unofficial. Sometimes they are at an all time low with retention practices so must allocate some HITS elsewhere. I joined the NAVY 18AUG1999 and was put on the USS Kitty HAwk CV 63 in Yokosuka Japan I was there
  for four years and realized that was enough. Got out as a third class and realized that The NAVY was not so bad and joined the ready reserves weekend warrior program. Then they send me that letter about 1100/8 that they hold on me what is it exactly I am not sure but saw something that purtained to it on your site let me know thanks Jason.
• Hello,

  While i am not a nuclear technician i hope my question is honored all the same... to put it quite simply: how did you deal with all the Bullshit (lack of a better word) that people threw at you? I mean, as i was reading the commentary one statement rang true:

  "The navy is not for everyone, too bad you dont find that out until AFTER you sign the papers"

  This is me... and obviously you, as well as many... MANY others all of whom i have to respect their privacy. Whether it be nuclear, deck, or communications we all seem to share the same problem... that no matter what the military tries to do we will not and can not conform to the whole "yessir Chief" attitude. There are people just born questioning why and how but most importantly since when have people in history ever made history by just "going with the flow?"

  I dont believe the Navy overall is bad... but there is leadership amongst its ranks that beguiles everything the military once stood for. People backstab their fellow soldiers and sailors over things called evals and promotion... you have to play constant politics simply because of some immature ass who is one pay grade above you, especially if that particular ass is someone who tries to joke like you're buddy buddy but when they want to prove their power as a superior they try to grill you for not doing something as simple as swabbing a tile (not a floor, a TILE of the floor) as you're leaving from a 14 hour shift with only yourself and another person as the only people in your section (keeping in mind you just had an enormously hard day and the oncoming section has more than five bodies at this point in time).

  It is ridiculous and i just wanted to congratulate you on your site for it is truly a source of non-biasm in regards to the USN... and after three years of hearing nothing but "go navy, hoo rah" it is indeed a welcome sight to my sore eyes. Thank you and to all those out there who call this site a "disgrace" or "tactless", i have but three words for you:

  OPEN YOUR EYES

• you are right the navy could not be more fucked up. how come some ass-clown e-2 that has some fat bitch of a wife, that is probably fucking a marine as im typing this, gets BAH while i have to live in a less then par barricks room with some smelly guy that i dont even like. i love it that i get paid half the money as someone else that decided to ruin thier life. but thats ok because when he gets a divorce he well be giving her half a months pay for the rest of his life. my favorite part of your whole web site though is the statement, the navy only follows rules when its convienent, which could not be more true. well i could bitch for days about the navy but im not. i too am on a submarine, andi think you know my pain.
• T shirt idea:

  i think this was a (navy nuclear power training command) classes t-shirt.

  front: i got a million dollar education at naval nuclear power training facility
  Back : shoved up my ass one nickel at a time

• What should the rank of a person who is qualified and 3m 301-304 deck watches up to OOD. CSOOW qualifed. Managed a work center as WCS and RPPO.

  Senior Chief?????? Chieif???? PO1??????

  Nope a damn PO3

  FTN

• As a fellow mast go'er I feel the inadequacies of this justice system you
  speak of and I definitley think the sporkife represents the Navy to it's utmost
  potential.

• I just recieved a letter from the U.S. Navy reserve and it stated as follows . I need you to call me as soon as possible concerning your CNAVRES 1100/8 that I hold on you . Call collect if needed . Is this a joke ? I have been out of the Navy for 9 years or so and I try not look back . I just wanted to know what this letter means if anything .
• One fine morning I received a call from a navy recruiter.  I didn’t even know what the navy was in my isolated town of [town], NY.  So giving the call some thought I told him to call back in a day or so.  I was a bit interested so I google searched the navy, it looked pretty sick in the pictures.  Before I knew it the recruiter was at my house in some dork ass uniform (go figure I would be wearing the same thing 2 months later).  The recruiter MA1 Diamond fed me promises of getting laid and how I would be working on the most sophisticated computers in the world.  What a lying sack of shit.
  
  The only reason I got laid in the navy is because the navy took me to desolate third world countries where I would loathe in my depression, drink beer and take the advice from my stupid liberty buddy to go get a hooker.
  
  Most sophisticated computers?  If it is almost 2006 then why am I working on Windows 2000? Being given all these delusional promises and being young I bit the bullet that would create the shell of my former self that I am today.  Forget Firstname M. Lastname (Aaron edited name out) and just call me Seaman.
  
  I am now serving on satans flagship the Nimitz.  I came into the navy as a seaman , 2 years later still a seaman, I love it how people right out of boot camp are third classes and tell me to go clean the shitters.  When I say something to them I get a counseling chit, and when I don’t sign the chit I will get a report chit… this cycle of getting constantly shafted is known as the wahp.  I just love RAS and how I have to lift 2,000 boxes of milk that each way 25 lbs. that is fifty thousand pounds in 4 hours.  I just happen to be randomly picked for almost every working party.  To relieve stress I go smoke in the crack house a 10’ by 10’ overcrowded metal room, and when medical asks me why I am dying from cancer and asthma at the same time I will let them know.  On top of all this bullshit i come into work in the morning expecting emails from loved ones and am bombarded by DAPA and NAAT emails all I have to say is 1) I don’t have a fucking alcoholic problem and 2)I don’t give a shit about advancement.
  
  Night shift, you gotta love it…there is nothing better in the world for me to be doing then stripping waxing and buffing a p-way for 12 hours straight.  Never in my life have I given so much attention to the floor that it almost makes me wonder why the Navy even gives a shit.  On top of being stuck with a shitty ass job, I have to fight off marines who have the tendencies to dive through my tape signs commando style.  Ruining hours of work all because they “didn’t feel like going around”..now lets all muster and advocate teamwork.  Fuck off!!
  
  Civilians are funny people, I am always hearing them say “your in the navy go get your education!”.  So I tried to do just that.  I signed up for some information on a Spanish course.  Key word is INFORMATION… but since the navy has to meet a quota they solicited my name into a college and enrolled me into a course of which I had no knowledge about or communication from.  To top it off, the ESO wanted 800 dollars to reimburse the navy for my sub-par average. WHAT THE HELL!!! Next time I will call Ms. Cleo and ask her if I have been mysteriously enrolled in a college because I am not a friggin mind reader!
  
  The navy is pushing me to reenlist well all I am pushing back because I am sick of this shit and am on the edge. I can take 12 in the ass but I cant have a beer… Happily Enlisted – [Name] just a seaman
  
• I saw your web site while doing a google search for watchdog groups that check on the navy. That should be enough to tell you my overall feelings on the navy in general.
  To tell you a bit about myself, I am a AG1 with 14 years in the navy who is about to get out of the navy due to the mis-management and lack of leadership that exists in the navy.
  My "problem" as I have been told is that "I don't know how to play the game". I have heard this enough times in my naval career to make me sick. I don't know how to play the game because this is not a game. It's my life! It's the welfare of my family. It's the welfare of the families of those I work with. Many people in my chain of command think I can't leave well enough alone. They feel that I am a "sea lawyer" who is always trying to fight the good fight. They are absolutely right. I feel that as a E-6 in the navy, my job is to take care of the people who work for me. All of them. Not just the ones deemed by the chain of command as being worthy.
  I believe in my heart, that is leadership. My seniors however, beg to differ. To them, LEADERSHIP means doing whatever is told of you when told by someone above you. I cannot for the life of me understand how being a lapdog has anything to do with leading. I absolutely cannot wrap my head around the concept.
  Anyway, I'm rambling.
  I also feel your pain when it comes to depression and stress. I was sent to the war last year and I have also done several high optempo exercises. The continuous stress created by these demanding missions combined with a complete lack of leadership and excessive amount of micro-managing has really messed up my life.
  I was once considered the "golden boy" or "on the short track" for chief but now, I am a burned out shell of my former self.
  The only thing that keeps me going right now is my children and a new found love of God. I still am battling depression and self doubt but I now at least know that I am loved, needed, and desired in this world.
  Believe me when I say, your site really struck a nerve with me. I have suffered from alcohol abuse, I have a stress related ulcer, weight problems, and depression. All of these things are new to me because of my experiences over the last few years. I am glad you were able to get yourself out of that situation and I hope you are on the right path for yourself. I pray that I will find my path soon and start that journey forward.

  Peace to you.
  

• I i've glanced through your site and while not navy personel, I can clearly see why there are so many dissenting views of Navy life. I work for a company that is creating software specifically for human capital management in the navy. I don't want to mention specifics because I could get in trouble for writing you.

  I have been exposed to some very high-level goings-on in the navy. The good news is that many powerful individuals understand the cause of disgruntled navy personel and are trying to fix it. You may have heard of such terms as 'Revolution in Training' 'Sea Warrior' and other catch-phrases. I would like to assure you and visitors of your site that these initiatives are indeed real, but the real benefit is still quite some time off as while there are plenty of admirals that understand the plight of lower-ranking personel, there are still many that are blind to the truth. Beruocratic bullshit and politics of course slow things down as well. I hope that you can pass this small sliver of hope on to those still having to endure navy life at its worst.

  Please do not reveal my name or email on the public site as I fear disciplinary action could ruin my attempt to help in the small way in which I am able. Feel free to contact me personally via email for more detailed information, but please understand my need to have my identity hidden from the public.

• I am a DEP'er in the AECF program, no subs, was a dumbass and admitted a smoked alot of pot before joining so they said I couldnt be in a sub or do NF. After reading your webpage I am glad. Just wondering if your feelings about the Navy was just the Nuclear Field Subs or the whole the whole Navy in general. Even though I have only been in DEP I have noticed that in general the people in the Navy seem to be total morons and the higher you go up in rank the dumber they get and that alot of my fellow DEP'ers have horrible body odor. Thing is I'm starting to get worried because I also signed up for a 6 year enlistment, noticed shipmates have body odor, realize that people above you are jackasses, and I even enjoy eating peanut butter on everything. I guess your site is familiar and I havent even gone on active duty. Problem is I have no other place to go and if 6 years is going to suck as badly as you say I want to prepare for it.
  - Matt
• Your website is quite possibly the most anti-Navy site I have encountered!
  Congratulations! - I enjoyed it immensely... I was a Nuke mechanic on an aircraft carrier (the IKE) - so I can relate to a lot of your articles/stories...

  Anyway, I'd like to exchange links with you? - If that's OK, my website is www.ikebites.com

• Aaron , whats up? I `ve been sending back those letters to the Navy recruiter who keeps mailing them to me . Its marked "Do not foward " but I just cover that with tape and write the address of the recruiter on top of the tape . I write a real sarcastic and condesending note to the guy like " are you really a Navy Recruiter because if you were you should realize that the person you are trying to reach hasn`t lived here in ten years " . Then I write please stop sending these silly letters because I will just keep returning them to you . Thought you would appreciate that Aaron . Later , Johnny .
• E-5 M-div class 0105. Only three reasons people stay in:
  • Can't handle personnel finacies and run up so much debt they become indentured servants,
  • family problems, too many kids, wife doesn't want to move, just bought a house, etc. and
  • individual has become so institutionalized by the navy, they have no hope of getting a job in which they need to interact with people in a non-dysfunctional way.
• There's a reason why most retired master chiefs die within 3 years of getting out. MM3 Dunfield, a great and wonderful person, gave up on himself in prototype. From that day on I realized that no matter what I did, I could not change the navy for the better. The best I could ever do is to try to look out for kids like him that were on the edge and try to help them out. I have been labled a "poor influence" and a ring leader. A title I wear proudly.
• I have developed quite a bit of anxiety and depression after graduating nnptc. Since then I went on med hold for 8 months. And now my doctor says there is nothing more they can do for me here, therefore, I am fit for full duty. I don't think so, of course. Everyday I feel like killing myself, but I don't because there are a few assholes in the navy I need to kill first. The only thing that gives me happiness is the thought of getting out and having my freedom. I really want to leave this country. I have developed a lot of hate for our country because of that place. I have terrible nightmares everynight of someone either murdering me or me murdering them. I really don't want to do any harm to anybody but I feel like when that person I hate is burning in a fire I going to let them burn.
  I have never been so immoral and done so many bad things in my life as I do now. What can I do(besides suicide or drugs)to get out of the navy.
• everything you said i'm living it i'm constantly depressed and stuck on cvn 73 george washington i just came back from being 3 weeks us i came back last week and still haven't been to xoi or mast i waiting for the piss test results to come back so they can kick me out if they don't i just keep requesting a piss test and keep poppin until they let me out i so severly depress don't eat sleep my wife's worried about me and so is my mother because she knows i have a terrible temper do you have any advice for me thanks for reading
• I was in the Navy for 4 years and left with an honorable discharge. My biggest gripes with the navy where the leadership and the lack of respect lower ranking individuals receive. Some of these people have families yet, when they come to work they are reduced to being treated basically like kids. I also didnt quite understand the whole concept of waxing a deck everyf*cking day knowing 5000 people are going to walk over it and you'll have to start again. They do have tiles that never dull yet the navy would rather discourage young sailors from doing more important things as a way to belittle. These chief and senior chief have kids the same age as some of these sailors yet they treat them like pions. Thats what really bothered me the most. I would go out as an E-5 and help wax the deck with an E-2 just because I felt like with me around the chief wouldnt be all up in his face. I'm glad I made E-5 my third year because that really puts a lot of ease on you !
  as far as what you yourself have to get done and you can focus on helping the younger guys out. But I won't forget some of the folks ive had to deal with and how I felt so small at times. There is no more a worse feeling then spending a few hours waxing the floor and your all pissed just because you didnt sign up for it and the xo of the ship walks by and says "Good Job Shipmate". Because you don't wanna be thought of as a good fucking floor buffer. Its not what I joined to do. But I didn't leave the navy disgrunted. I wasn't that weak to be honest. I just let them know I was staying in and I went as far as to have orders sent just so they wouldnt harass me about leaving. Then I decided to leave. I didnt even use up my leave days. They figured I was leaving and they were "shorthanded" so i just ended up getting paid for those days. It kinda pissed me off but hey thats the system.
  Something else that really irked me is that the really good hearted people are the ones that were looked on as dirt. I don't know if anyone notices but the ones were the coolest and nicest were looked down on by the higher ups. What else can I say. It wasn't the most pleaseant experience but I coped. For those of you that feel sucidal I suggest you get some help. Its ususally the younger guys that didnt fully know what they were getting into. And for the person who said do you research before you join your full of sh*t. When your 18-19 and go to your recruiter you think he is your research you sit and ask him a million questions. You don't expect to be given half truths. At 18 I had more important things to do then "research" what the navy is really about. I expected it all to be up front from my recruiter. I think the navy did two things for me it gave me responsibility and it gave me depression. Now I feel depressed every day at my job and I don't know what its from !
  but i cope. Its no big deal. Its the usual pay bills stress and it builds but In the navy I enjoyed what i did but couldnt stand the atmosphere. thanks have a good day.

• densefngr@yahoo.com wrote
  "Hey Retard! How the fuck can you be so ignorant???"

  REPLY: none required.

• freesweett@hotmail.com wrote
  You're an idiot, and you must have a small penis. You really have no idea what the hell you are talking about so you should stop giving people false advice. Yeah I dont like the military either but you are one sorry sack of shit for smoking pot and blaming other people for your own mistakes. You need to jump off a bridge and kill yourself.
  Aaron is a girls name, homo.
  
  REPLY: those are the exact type of judgemental close minded people you will be working with if / when you join the military.
  
• npeterson73@hotmail.com wrote
  "Your website was truly disturbing. Obviosly you had a bad experience in the Navy and feel that you should spead lies. Or as you would say "bullshit". Not everyone thinks the way you do...unless they are homosexual and just need an excuse for their poor judgement inlife, so they blame the military for not "being nice to them". BooWhoo for you! I know that this great country allows freedom of speech and you are ceratinly intitled to that. But, perhaps you should use FACTS not opinion! Your website sucks and you must have way too much time onyour hands to create such a mess. I suppose you would though...because I am sure that you are out of the military and making minimum wage! Way to go Champ!"
  
  reply: perfect example for the reason I got out of the navy. I have no need for judgemental close minded crap in my life. Money doesn't matter much to me, in fact I already donate some of my profits to support multiple kids less fortunate than I am. If wages are what you use to judge the quality of a person then you have some misguided value issues going on there.
  
• richandmaggie@excite.com wrote: How about adding a very positive comment on your website.  Or are you too left wing Liberal to handle the truth from a positive view.
  
  1.  It takes a special person to serve in the Navy because of the seperation.  I served on 4 submarines in my first 10 years, so I can say this with experience.  Was it always "fun"?  No however, I am now 45 and would not trade the memories for anything!
  
  2.  Can you get educated while on active duty?  Yes!  You have to juggle a full time job with college, just as a civilian has to.  It's called prioritization!  I personally have a dial major BBA in Marketing and HR and it was gained on active duty!
  
  3.  Can recruiters lie?  YES however, the majority of them really care and want to help.  Out of 24 years of active duty, 18 of it was in recruiting either as a recruiter, manager, trainer, or support person for computers.  I can tell you one thing, and it applies to every person that signs on the dotted line.  You get what you pick, and it is guaranteed in black and white!  And oh by the way, it is what you make of it.  If you are a quitter when you sign up, you will be a quitter no matter what you do in life.  Pick it, choose it, and live it!  No matter what!
  
  4.  Can you get out of DEP?  Of course, and if you do, what kind of person really are you, and what is your word worth.  The Navy sets aside and budgets for your training when you sign for whatever you have picked.  You cannot join with no guarantee!  Gosh what a shame you get what you pick.
  
  5.  Is it all perfect? NO, and neither is real life!
  
  I would like to address a few of those points...
  
  The are you to left wing liberal was a stupid comment. Only people who allow others to do their thinking for them think of the world as black/white left/right. Your categorization of me would be similar to me calling you a "nutball right wing pro youth killing warmonger".
  
  1. It was not the separation that made the Navy hard. It was the lack of sunlight, exercise, low food quality, low oxygen levels and being surrounded by depressed people who were also often self serving back stabbing snitches. This just in: the comrodorie on submarines today is not what it was 20 years ago.
  
  2. Sure you may be able to get a degree while active duty, but who the hell wants to get a degree by number. It isn't coloring, and if you can't go to the actual classes there is little point to getting a degree. I have yet to get a degree, but I have taught an MBA marketing class already, and I bet I know much more about marketing than you do.
  
  3. Nice of you to point out that recruiters can lie. Also see - SWC(SCW)Walter A. Groover's comment at the top of the page.
  
  And the idea that people get what they pick is just not true. For example, about 20% - 30% of people probably fail out of power school.
  
  Worse yet, when you sign on as a nuc you do not know if you are going to be a mechanic, electrician, reactor operator, or lab sampling guy. I would have probably got the boot if I was a mechanic just because I am not that coordinated (being totally honest there). Luckily they chose for me to become a reactor operator (which is really rare) because that is probably the only one of the jobs I would have done decently.
  
  4. To say that someone has a lack of character for getting out of DEP is just absolute bullshit. What happens if a person decides they no longer want to support bogus wars? What happens if a person has something good enter their life? The military generally is not committed to quality of life issues for members. Why should a 17 or 18 year old only thinking about joining be more committed to the military than the military is committed to active individuals, or reservists spending years in Iraq or dieing there in a bogus war?What % of 17 year old's know what they want for the rest of their life? Would you feel ashamed knowing that your advice caused an 18 year old to get killed? Probably not, but I would.
  
  5. Nice of you to make a separation between the navy and real life. After being in as long as you were, and being braid fed that long most people are unable to do that.
  
  
• milkywhitesweetheart@yahoo.com said:
  I got this letter cnavres 1100/8. What is it? and I also have comments about some of the things that were said on this website.

  I am in the navy now......5 years to be exact. I have had my share fare of problems but I never blamed the navy for them. Yes, I am at sea and miss alot of my family life, Yes, I wonder alot of times what am I doing here but to blame the navy for your failures...you know "poor me attitude"...."it is never my fault"...you know what I am saying. If you have done any drugs while on duty being active or reserve you get what you deserve. Nobody put a gun to your head and said do it. Just like anywhere else there are rules and they are to be followed. If your having family problems i.e your spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend is cheating on IT IS NOT THE NAVY's fault. I am not pro navy or disapprove of the navy....it has got me this far in my life...where as I would not be other wise. I have worked port and starboard and sick as a dog. I have worked almost 20 hour days of weeks but I do not blame the navy. Who put me here...I did. Everybody says the recruiter lied to me...well I have something to say about that as well...everybody had the means to do their research before signing the dotted line. I went to mast in my first 4 months...and I was suppose to get an oth but I beat the system and got to stay in. Do I blame the navy for my poor judgement. No, I think it is time for people to GROW UP and take responisibility for themselves. No one is responisble for your mistakes in life just you are. If you blame the military for your poor judgement then you are a person to blame everyone for your mistakes in life.
  
  REPLY: >everybody had the means to do their research before signing the dotted line.

  HENCE THE REASON MY SITE EXISTS.

  have fun researching your cnav res 1100/8

• Bill said:
  I too served honorably as a reactor operator, and I must say you are a crackpot.  Apparently the psych prescreening we received at bootcamp did not catch whatever ailment you are suffering from.  I notice you don't display comments from people like me.  Life on the sub sucked, not doubt, but overall it was an asset and an honor.  You need to grow up.
• AE2(AW) Haske said:
  I'll admit, sometimes shit in the navy is 'kinda fucked up', but you have got to be kidding me! Just because your expiriences while you were in the navy sucked, doesn't mean that you should stop others from making (what might be for them)a good choice. When I sit here  and read this shit, it makes me want to kick the shit out of you! You sound like a big pussy that couldn't hack it, and maybe your best contribution to society is getting out of the navy and working at McDonalds. I've only been in 4 years, and I've already made second class, done multiple deployments to the persian gulf in support of OIF and OEF(Operation Iraqi Freedom amd Operation Enduring Freedom for you no-load motha fuckas out there) and been to quite a handful of other places across the globe. I'm on KC-130's so I have never been assigned to a ship or a sub, so I can't comment on weather or not that sucks or not, but dude, in the air wing of the navy, we've got it made! Two words- Per diem! we stay in 4 star or better hotels, combat pay, tax free pay, traveling the world, etc. Oh yeah, I forgot, fresh air, all the time! Granted, when I joined I took a huge pay cut 'cause I used to be a welder and in construction, so I made a decsent ammount of $$$, but you know now it is all coming back around, I've got a wonderful girlfriend and two beautiful daughters (which if I hadn't joined, I wouldn't have), and a bunch of toys on top of it all. So if anyone out there is looking for a good career move, travel, adn the time of your young lives, I say go for it! Thanks for your time!
  
  REPLY: "what might be" You know, what might be and what is...I think my site is far closer to the truth than the stuff in the commercials. I doubt my website has more effect on children potentially joining the military than the multi million dollar video games or hundred million dollar ad campaigns the government runs.
  
  RE: McDonalds...yet another idiot judges me without realizing that his own judgemental words hurt the military far more than anything I could ever say. ... As far as you know how it is all coming back around
  • I realize that hazardous duty pay has been getting cut while more military members are dying in a bogus perpetual war.
  • I realize that you see your family far less than most people do.
  • I realize the state of US veteran affairs are at best laughable or shameless.
  • I realize you took a pay cut to get your current job.
  • I realize I was dirt poor when I was in the military.
  • I realize you think I work at McDonalds.
  • I realize that this year I will probably make over 10 times what I made some years while I was in the military.
  • I realize small business owners and fortune 500 companies have paid me $500 an hour just to chat on the phone.
  • Indeed, stuff does comes back around.
    
    
• The Eagles have a song for you. I suggest you purchase the "Hell Freezes over DVD. Fast forward to the song "Get Over It". Listen closely. I looked at your whole web site. It appears you have a substance abuse problem. Most employers require drug tests now-a-days. They fire you when you test positive. If you are caught driving under the influence of ANY drug you can go to jail. You were weeded out of the Navy. We all went through the submarine experience. We all bitched. But guess what? Most of us did our jobs. Some broke down. I was an instructor at prototype. I watched one young man loose it one night. They took him away in an ambulance. I felt sorry for him....however, I was sure of one thing; No Way I wanted him on a submarine with me. I believe I feel the same about you. The system is designed to weed guys like you out. I submit you would have screwed up your life Navy or no Navy. No, I am not a lifer. I got out after 10 years of proudly ! (bitching occasionally) serving my country.

  Tom Miller
  Former MM-1(SS)
  2 Tours MARF Prototype
  Member SSBN-654B Crew
  misterturbine@aol.com
  
  Reply: "It appears you have a substance abuse problem. I submit you would have screwed up your life Navy or no Navy." You could not be more wrong shipmate. Today people pay me over $100 / hour just to talk to me and I have not done any illegal drugs in a really long time. Granted this site (and the navy) are what made me the successful internet marketer that I am today, but I must take the good with the bad. Thanks for being one of the thousands of people viewing one of my websites today.
  
  "I looked at your whole web site." - Thanks for wasting hours of your life.
  
  "No, I am not a lifer. I got out after 10 years of proudly !" Look at your email "misterturbine@aol.com" - are you trying to tell me that is not the email of a digit? If you got out and are done with the navy then why are you looking up navy information to find my site? One of us is lying right now. It's probably the honorable one who got his shiny honorable discharge - which in no way makes you a better person than me.

  Editors note: Tom and I have emailed back and forth a bit and his email address is from his new work as a turbine mechanic. I think he and I both came to the understanding that we both misunderstand one another. He was looking for one of his old shipmates when he found this site. It was still bogus for him to be a judgemental asshole toward me.
  
• I read you comments on your website, and I would say for the most part they

  are bogus. You must have been one of those guys who was a thorn in the side of the
  command. I never understood why you even joined. You are obviously looking for a
  handout. What did you think you were stepping into. The Navy is no place for
  pussy's like yourself. Get a life and quit whining about your past life. Give
  something to society instead of being a burden! The US has given you so much and
  you in turn have aligned yourself with excuses and a cannot-do attitude. from hottlott@yahoo.com
  
  for the most part: even trying to say I am wrong, he still had to agree with some of what I said
  You are obviously looking for a handout - never collected unemployment a day of my life. been employed one way or another since I had a paper route in junior high - did yardwork before that
  What did you think you were stepping into. - not hell, but we all make mistakes...
  The Navy is no place for pussy's like yourself. - this speaks volumes for the intelligence of the source - I stood someone else's duty on Thanksgiving with a hurniated disk
  Give something to society - I have a website that teaches people how to do search engine marketing ... free, I also have a site about depresssion (the type of horrible depression I had on that submarine) which I try to help depressed people out, personally responding to every email message. I give money away every month. In fact people have told me that I restored their mental sanity.
  excuses and a cannot-do attitude I am creating my own business, bet he has not.. What is the fundamental strength of the US system ... thats right SMALL BUSINESS

  below is an example feedback from one of my other sites (which I made a greater priority than this one)

  Thanks to all who designed this site which i fortunately stumbled across in my search this evening.
  If only there were more sites with unbias, clear concise information with well put together links to the relevant subject; then the internet would be a truly remarkable place. - does that count for Give something to society?

• let's compare all your petty complaints against the tens of thousands of living veterans who have actually shed blood under combat conditions in service of this country. Most of them did so in far less hospitible conditions than the climate cintrolled atmosphere of a submarine and recieved far less compensation than you, They also received training less convertible to the civillan sector than the training you received. Of course you blew the opportunity to put that training to use in the civillan world, but I'm sure that's not your fault either. Geeze, apparently you were even incompetent in the fairly simple procedures to successfully commit suicide. What a shame! - from markcable@verizon.com

  "far less hospitible conditions than the climate cintrolled atmosphere" - if this atmosphere makes you want to kill yourself for years then it is an issue which should be addressed.

  "Of course you blew the opportunity to put that training to use in the civillan world, but I'm sure that's not your fault either" - this website has made me an amazing internet marketer...I have no regrets. After all, you are the close minded one pissed off at my opinion. So pissed off that you had to take time out of your day to tell me what you thought of me.

  "Geeze, apparently you were even incompetent in the fairly simple procedures to successfully commit suicide. What a shame!" - may God save your soul!

• are you nuts, guy? i know that nuke shit is hard, but how could you let it eat you alive like that? i mean, do you really think you're that smart? if you wanted to like the navy, why couldn't you adhere to one simple rule like no drugs? you could have shown them and laughed in the face of adversity gotten yourself into a job you enjoyed and not have that OTH to bother you for the rest of
  your life. all i'm saying is that you piss me off... the navy was not out to get you like you may think. you just probably should have grown up a little bit before getting into something you couldn't handle.

  REPLY: When I asked for help they told me to go fuck myself. I do not think they are out to get me. I think they are unaware of the consequences of their actions, there is little to no accountability, and there are few legitimate feedback loops. All of which are telltale signs of bad business!

• ne. Recruiters candy coat it and as an 18 year old right out of high school, you really don't know what your getting into. The nuclear pipeline was tough, at least when I went through. Prototype is probably the best time in the Navy if your a one termer. Fleet life is tough. The hours are long, its thankless, and theres a lot of BS to deal with from the chain of command. Deployments suck, sea time sucks. I know I spent over two years at sea during my 4.5 year tour. That being said, it wasn't all bad. I met some great people on the sub that I served in. I'll probably never work with people with that kind of intelligence and drive again. I have fond memories to look back on. Nuclear Power taught me what I could do if I put my mind to it. I have no regrets, it was a learning experience. It sucked though, no doubt about that. I'll never forget Vulcan death watches and our insane ORSE workups and the amount of cleaning!
   and painting we did.
• sqrthomas@hotmail.com said: I'm an ET, just about to graduate prototype, goin subs. found your site only because I was interested in the "why McDonalds is better than the Navy" that I'd heard so much about. everything I'd seen has been hinted at or made blatantly obvious by my short experience. the only real comment I can make has been made before, the "you control your actions" stance. with which I wholeheartedly agree. However, I am a hopless optimist and feel that if a difference can be made, there must be those within who actively try to make a change. It would be shameful to leave the ignorant in charge, even if its only a few, we must stand and say "this is wrong, and it shall go no further." and in this way give some hope to those who only see two ways out, in cuffs, or in bag.

  now this is not to say you should stop, a more fully informed person makes a better decision. and those who feel they couldn't handle the way the navy is run, shouldn't join. but those who feel they can, and are willing to make a difference, should.
  
  reply: "you control your actions" ... wait until they drug you by keeping your oxygen levels artificially low. "It would be shameful to leave the ignorant in charge" thinking you can change the system while enlisted is an act of ignorance. to get to a position of power in the military you generally need to trade in your spine or your brain (or become a civilian).

• gobigred07@msn.com said: "I am currently in the Navy and am a Nuke Electrician. I also share some of your thoughts about the Navy, but it is not as bad as you state on this Web Site. As funny as this Web Site is to "Navy Nukes", it is demoralizing to people and Sailors on a larger scale.

  But this is America and you are allowed to say whatever you want.

  Good Luck...

  Tad McDowell"

• seagull392@yahoo.com said "I found this site because my husband is on a sub now, and I was looking on the web to find out more about his particular sub while he is out to sea. This is just a comment, not a question: The information about vaccinations in the "El Diablo Negro" section is false. I worked at Carnegie Mellon University on a project about vaccinations, and am absolutely positive that none of the vaccinations given to submariners causes cancer. This false information should not be on a website claiming to give unbiased information about submarine life."
  
  Isn't it interesting that I can't even go to internet marketing only websites without running into navy banners. The same organization which is being promoted never really has much of the other side of the story wrote about. I even state that this site is biased on the home page and atop this page. I believe it to be true, but do not remember the instance specifically (though I am almost certain it is true). To make sure this site is as accurate as possible I put a line through that statement explaining the above feedback.

In Between (Love + Hate)

• SWC(SCW)Walter A. Groover: We are all where we are by choice YOU chose to raise your right hand, there was no gun held to your head. If you are having a "bad experience" with the Navy and really want out just have a 1.0 on your next eval and make damn certain that you are not recommended for retention. Bottom line is it not for everyone, but those who CHOSE to make the best of it are the ones not bitching and complaining that just happen to excel because it is their CHOICE. See the pattern here!! The "real world" does not provide you with a housing allowance in your paycheck or a clothing allowance or provide you with a roof over your crybaby ass. So the next time you go to the ATM or bank or any other financial institution think about that.
  In closing ALWAYS remember this for everyone of you that have this negative disposition your shipmates and fellow SeaBees are counting on you to do your job when the time comes and if you don't then the very life and liberty, you enjoy as an American, is at risk. Somewhere some crazyass radical extremist is thinking if we can break the infrastructure of the US military then we can take these freedoms and priviledges away from them and take over the US.
• me: look, the navy isn't all roses, some people are satisfied driving a
  geo metro to work after 20 years. I, however, am not.
• SWC(SCW)Walter A. Groover: Aaron,
  I agree. And thenm there are those who have never had a job let alone a vehicle at all therefore, the GEO is a milestone
• me: A friend was explaining that to me. and I agree. and for some people
  it is fine and it works.

  It almost killed me. I got out. Almost instantly I started making tons
  of money doing whatever I want to without a boss.

  most people probably will not replicate what I was able to do, but for
  young naive kids like me (my mom had to sign a permission slip for me
  to join) who might have joined and died because the service was too
  slow and boring and depressing for them... I think they should know
  the slow measured paces and sacrifices associated with being a member
  of the military.

  if they do not want to drive a geo they should know that it is an obligation.

• SWC(SCW)Walter A. Groover: Aaron,
  I hear what you are saying, the folks that are not providing the up front business end of the terms and obligation that it carries with it should be ashamed of themselves. But I guess to be a recruiter you must be shameless and not have the type of commitment to the individual and to the Navy one would expect.
  I know that each morning when I look at the mirror I am content with who and what I am and have done the day before and have full faith in knowing that I have done my best to provide to my junior and senior personnel the best direction that I have available to me at the time. But that is me.....

Feedback to Feedback

Someone else wanted to comment to Chief Groover...

• Chief Groover,
  
  -"We are all where we are by choice YOU chose to raise your right hand, there was no gun held to your head"
  
  First and foremost, let me go ahead and congratulate you on so aptly illustrating my (and many others) primary example in why people in "your" navy are so damned miserable.  I know well enough that nothing i can say, write, or even send you is going to enlighten your point of view on this matter, but for once in your small petty little life, admit that the organization you're so proudly enlisted in, is at the very least, guilty of false advertising.
  
  You're real... really quick to pull out that "choice" lingo, but the fact of the matter is that "choices" clouded by illusion, lies, or even a "half baked" truth of the fact are not really tools one can make "good choices" with.  People (recruiters) lie to innocent little teenagers every day to simply suit their quota and evals.  There is no such thing as a "choice" when it comes to being recruited in the military, and you can lie to me (or anyone else) all you want, but you can't lie to yourself and what i'm typing is the "bottom line" of it, like it or not.
  
  So go back to your khakis, put on that fake smile of yours that you wear for the "politics" of the game, and quit trying to badger the people who are actually trying to give our impressionable youth what it needs and deserves- the other side to that college tuition, free housing, and free medical/dental that the military is so good at pitching.
  
  And by the way, aaron is not the only one who has made something of himself post-navy.  I fully enjoy my 50,000.00 annual salary with medical, dental, 401k, 30-day vacation, 7 sick days, and 3 grievence days per calander year.  As i have said before, i'll say it again...
  "go navy... only if you\'re really desperate."
  
  "In closing ALWAYS remember this for everyone of you that have this negative disposition your shipmates and fellow SeaBees are counting on you to do your job when the time comes and if you don\'t then the very life and liberty, you enjoy as an American, is at risk. Somewhere some crazyass radical extremist is thinking if we can break the infrastructure of the US military then we can take these freedoms and priviledges away from them and take over the US. "
  
  Lastly, you really should shoot yourself for this comment.  THIS is exactly why people in "your navy" commit suicide at such extreme rates.  Simply because you want to IGNORE the problem by placing them into a "negative disposition" catagory instead of acknowledging the fact that there is a problem!  Its soooo much easier for you to catagorize, blackball, and discredit your sailors than actually help them and "try" to change things for younger generations.  It\'s so much harder for someone who has the power (EVEN YOU HAVE THE POWER IN YOUR POSITION), to refuse to admit "oh hey, there\'s some legitimacy to this" and just blow these people off.  Also, just because the navy fires a few missiles in the terrorist\'s direction doesn\'t mean crap... you try actually going and grabbing a gun, then walking to the front lines putting everything you love and hold dear at risk.  THOSE are the real warriors of this battle, not some prissy little "shin your shoes" and "fix that gig-line" sail!
   ors!  So think about THAT next time you spout your little "pro-navy" line of crap.
  
  Good luck to you chief, i fore see at this rate you will make master chief in no time... and guess what?
  
  All the problems in the navy will still be there.
  
  -Honorably discharged IT2 J.S.
  submit: Submit Query

• I read your description of nuclear power an found it well intentioned and very informative to the general public. However, I found a technical error that you may wish to correct.

  Most Nuclear Power Plants including Navy Reactors are PWR's Pressurized Water Reactors) not BWR's (Boiling Water Reactors). You indicate the Reactor creates steam to turn a turbine in the primary loop. PWR's do not create steam in their primary loop. The primary loop circulates high pressure water that remains subcooled even after heated by the reactor. The primary loop exchanges heat and makes steam in secondary loop in the steam generator.
  

• Hey whats up ? I think your web-site is on the money . I was in the Navy for ten years including my reserve time . I think most people in the Navy are complete morons . I got into alot of trouble for assaulting a superior officer . I lost my cool and paid dearly for it . I look back on my time in and think what a waste of time . Its sad . Years later though I ran into the fellow that I slapped around . The one that got me into so much trouble . When he saw me he couldn`t run out of the bar fast enough . I caught him in the parking lot . He learned a valuable lesson that night . I couldn`t think of a more satisfying feeling I have ever experienced . Revenge is a great thing . Whats the deal with this CNAVRES 1100/8 ? I got one recently ,the same one thats listed in this site . Does it mean anything ? They wouldn`t take me back yet they send me this stupid letter over and over . Thanks , Johnny
• my son and i were talking. he ask me how many nuclear sub and aircraft carriers this great country has. i don't know.  can you help us?  we live in west virginia.  long way from the ocean.  thanks in advance.  and, keep up the good work
• You've done well to post your experiences here (although some spell checking would be good). I am a ROTC midshipman and it was interesting to read about the feelings of those who are not totally pro-Navy. I am also considering going submarines (if not that, then surface warfare) so your info on submarine life was interesting also. Now yours is just one case on one boat, but it gives me things to look for (that I might not otherwise notice) when I'm out on cruise. So basically, thanks for frankly sharing your experiences. Submarines (and the Navy) are obviously not for everyone, it's just too bad that you can't find that out until you've already signed papers. Interestinly enough, I found your site while investigating civilian jobs for nuclear-trained people. Thanks and I hope life has improved for you since leaving the Navy.
• I ship for basic in june. I'm a NF DEP-er. This site has me more than a little worried. I was just wondering what I could do to make my fate more enjoyable.
• I was a BM1 in Beirut Lebanon in 1983 and was tad with the 24th MAU when the truck bomb hit the BLT HQ. Later I talked with the ship Dr. about sleep problems. 3 years later I was given an OTH discharge with over 11 years of loyal duty. The VA said that I have PTSD. My Question is: Did the Navy have a program in place in 1983 to spot and treat the symptoms of PTSD or debriefing?
• What can I say? I took the time to read both sides on your web site. I served proudly for 4 years and recieved an honorable discharge. I don't impune the Navy but I do see a need for alot of change with in the new changes. For example when my ship was alterd to house women, they forgot to make any brige space for them. why?
  During my four years I have whittnessed an exceading amount of institutionalisd coruption an injustus. However I alowed myself to remain positive (I remained a republican) when I was put in a position of leadership I took it apon my self to make changes for my guy's. I got slammed for it happly. I was serving. My biggest reward was that if even for a short pieriod of time my guys were happy and doing better. I didn't mined that my "Career" was put in jepordy because of my actions. That is what a leader is soposed to do.
  What I'm trying to get at is that YES there is alot of bad stuff that goes on in all the services, but as members and patriots it is our duty to institute positive change nomatter what the cost is to us individualy. My question is, what positive change can you or this web site have for our serving members and for our heros in the future?
• Hi. I am a former Navy Nuke (EM2 from the USS TUNNY SSN 682). I am now a reservist. I got out of the active duty Navy because we were gone from home all of the time. People ask me what it was like and I say, "I got alot out of the Navy and the Navy got alot out of me." We worked hard and didn't sleep much... but I did walk away with a great resume, and have been working in Electrical and Electronic positions since 1993. I have not been unemployed one day. I have good job skills. I admit that it is a VERY HARD way to spend 6 years of your life. I admit that there are easier ways to learn about electricity. But I don't share your bitterness for the time and effort that I invested as a Nuke. There are assholes and tyrants in every company and organization. Conversely, some of the people I knew onboard TUNNY were just great. Maybe I got lucky, maybe it was just a good time in history to be on a boat, and I got a good deal. The food sucked, the time away sucked, qu!
   als sucked, etc. But it left a GOOD mark on me for the rest of my life. We actually did live by the high expectations and hard work that was expected. I've kept alot of those lessons with me, and many of the civilians I have worked with just don't understand accountability or hard work.
• Just was told 3 days ago that my son, just turned 20 and 2 wks away from finishing ET A school, had a positive drug test (THC). He's feeling like crap and I feel like I've been punched in the gut.. we thought he was on his way and now it's just been a wasted year in his life. Trying to be supportive and loving (he knows he screwed up, no point in going over it). Any suggestions on how to help him when he gets home... I'm afraid he'll go into a depressed nose dive (he would relate to your general philosophies of life, so you may be of help here). Your site has made me feel that perhaps he wouldn't have really wanted to spend 6 yrs in the navy anyway, so I guess it's helped me already... thanks.
• I laughed my ass off reading your stories. as a former MM2/SS ELT on the SLC 91-94, I can verify some of your claims. Much of what you say is true from all submariners point of view. I think a lot of what you experienced was isolated to your command, or a least the minority of boats.

  That's not to say there is no truth to it, but it is a harsh life to live. The Coner-Nuke rivaly, the newbie treatment, not to mention quals. I describe it to people now as a bunch of cold hearted merciless people that use anything and everything personal (or impersonal) against you for the laughs of the rest of the department.

  But I look back on the experience now with some sense of admiration that I made it through. I like to remember my co-workers that suffered together with me; that sprayed water on the div-o's during field day. How about the RT who I thought I was dousing with a quart of water, when it actually penetrated the svfc cabs?

  I had never heard anyone else other than on my boat use the phrase "Vulcan Death Watch." I see tradition still stands. So I guess I can neither offer disapproval over what you say or condone it, but I can say I DO Understand.

  (part 2) Aaron, what's up? I didn't want to come off as pro navy or completely anti-navy in my testimonial. I think there were several distinct phases that passed while I was on the boat. One of them had the kind of CO,and Eng. you just hate, the other one had a very repectable CO, XO, and COB. One phase had outstanding food because of an MSC who cared, but after he left, the food sucked.

  I can relate to the depression, really I can. I'll send you some of my underway poetry if you want, that I wrote while wasting my life away
  sitting in ERF. I think they are some very horrifying parts of my life I'd like to forget. But that's over now, and I'm doing good. Glad to see you've put it behind you and made something of yourself, because we both know, the NAVY sure as hell tries to take away everything that makes one an individual.

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